Clutch

[Rik 0]

Looking for a clutch for my Mi16, and after a good search I visited the Helix Autosport Website,

 

Im now stumped to what the difference between an Organic / Sintered / Cerametallic clutch actually is!

 

And Im not sure what plate type I need E.g. Single / Twin / Triple

 

Im also not sure what torque Ill be running but I want the future option to produce more power to the region of 230 250 BHP, I know clutches are Torque requirement based, but Im really dont know what Torque a 250BHP engine will produce!?!?

 

Can anyone who already has a performance clutch please comment on what Torque specs you required, and also which Helix Clutch you bought

 

Thanks

 

Rik

[madvalver 0]

Looking for a clutch for my Mi16, and after a good search I visited the Helix Autosport Website,

 

Im now stumped to what the difference between an Organic / Sintered / Cerametallic clutch actually is!

 

And Im not sure what plate type I need E.g. Single / Twin / Triple

 

Im also not sure what torque Ill be running but I want the future option to produce more power to the region of 230 250 BHP, I know clutches are Torque requirement based, but Im really dont know what Torque a 250BHP engine will produce!?!?

 

Can anyone who already has a performance clutch please comment on what Torque specs you required, and also which Helix Clutch you bought

 

Thanks

 

Rik

 

 

Had a Helex cerametallic 4 puk on my ST205 GT-4(big heavy 4wd car, 300 odd brake). Great for handling loads of torque and power when dumping the clutch off the line(could get it pulling sideway it i tried hard enough) but they are know to wear very quickly under normal driving conditions(heard some reports of just 4-6k between changes and i dont think that included lots of 1/4miles starts. Most people use to recommend uprated organic clutches as there take alot more normal day to day stop start driving and not grabby, smoother off the line.

 

Light N/A front wheel cars dont really need mega clutches unless you are running very grippy tyres or slicks as there not a massive load on them.

[Sandy 189]

I have run and know of several Peugeots running Cerametallic paddle plates with standard covers very reliably. One of them has done at least 25k IIRC. You get all the benefit of the plate without the snappy nature of an uprated cover.

[brianthemagical 1]

what do you want it for? if your using it on the road then a sprug center is advisable, if your doing rallying of fast roed canning then a cerametalic (multi puk type) can handle heat better which isn't need as much on a track due to the certainty of whats up ahead. a multiplate clutch shouldn't be needed unless your 250bhp is at something like 2000rpm, in which case you'll have a lot of torque. uprated organic is probs the best. if you get a strong spring on the clutch it can be a night mare in any stop start situsation, as can a soloid center.

 

to estimate the amount of torque of the engine more info is need. a turbo will have a lot more than na for example. hope that helps.

[madvalver 0]

I have run and know of several Peugeots running Cerametallic paddle plates with standard covers very reliably. One of them has done at least 25k IIRC. You get all the benefit of the plate without the snappy nature of an uprated cover.

 

What sort of gain have they got by having a cerametallic clutch? Did they find there standard clutch wasnt up to the job or slipped under hard acceleration, standing starts?

[Sandy 189]

My old 1.6 16v TB engined 205 was typical of on the torque limit. I had a standard genuine new clutch and it would slip on about the third savage change on emergency starts. i ditched the standard plate and fitted the Cerametallic with the standard cover, it bit sharper, never ever slipped and they don't fade like normal plates in hard use.

[tom_m 0]

My old 1.6 16v TB engined 205 was typical of on the torque limit. I had a standard genuine new clutch and it would slip on about the third savage change on emergency starts. i ditched the standard plate and fitted the Cerametallic with the standard cover, it bit sharper, never ever slipped and they don't fade like normal plates in hard use.

 

sandy your paddle clutches are solid centred aren't they? can you get sprung centres too? did you use the solid centres for day-day road use at all?

[Sandy 189]

I've always used sprung centres.

[Rik 0]

Ok, thanks for the reply guys! but i've not actually got a definite answer,

 

Sounds like what sandy first suggested sounded the best option, a cerametallic plate with the standard cover...

 

So what is the difference between organic / sintered / cerametallic?

 

And how do i know what paddle plat to buy?

 

and whats the difference between solid centre and sprung centre?

sounds like i'm getting advice on what chocolates to buy lol!

 

Rik

 

P.S - Can yuo tell i'm new to clutches!?!

Edited February 1, 2007 by Rik

[205turbo 32 2 Cars]

i had a peugeot sport paddle clutch with a sprung centre, it was a bit of a switch ie on and off,was not great for road use in traffic but felt good delivering the power.

[rally ax 0]

I also use a Alcon paddle plate (rigid !) with a std cover and never found it a problem on the road ,its done 1 1/2 years of sprints and hill climbs and 1 year of tarmac rallying.

I was looking in my rally design catalogue and seen that they do Valeo paddle ones for the 205 starting from £92.20 & £99.29 +vat for the rigid ones and £127.66 + vat for a sprung one

[205Rallee 59]

I also use a Alcon paddle plate (rigid !) with a std cover and never found it a problem on the road ,its done 1 1/2 years of sprints and hill climbs and 1 year of tarmac rallying.

I was looking in my rally design catalogue and seen that they do Valeo paddle ones for the 205 starting from £92.20 & £99.29 +vat for the rigid ones and £127.66 + vat for a sprung one

 

I've used a rigid Alcon paddle ceremetalic in my 205 Rallye TU24 with a standard cover for over 8 years, about 70 sprints and 30,000 miles. Its brilliant, just squeels sometimes when changing from 3rd to 2nd.

[madvalver 0]

Not Peugeot but worth a quick read. From Fensport.co.uk

 

 

Which Clutch FAQ ?

 

Buying a clutch can be a nightmare with so many options and "expert opinions" out there, no wonder people get confused - here`s our take on the subject, which we have had many years of experience and countless thousands of miles using the following products. Our cars are always available if you wish to try the "pedal feel or driveability" of our Fensport range of clutches, then please contact one of our sales staff to arrange a demonstration.

 

Please note this FAQ is designed to help you decide based on experience gained from our own vehicles - figures quoted are our own ratings, but please be aware that different driving styles/vehicles may produce different results.

 

IMPORTANT : We strongly advise all clutches are given time to bed in, we advise 300miles of frequent gearchanging, and gradually increasing the power, this will ensure full contact of friction surfaces, stability and longer lifespan, the bedding in process is particularily important for clutches with cerametallic friction material.

 

Clutch Adjustment

 

All clutches on all toyota models are adjustable for freeplay. The freeplay must be within the factory tolerance of 5 - 15mm or serious damage, slippage & wear may occur.

 

To adjust the freeplay - at the top of the clutch pedal there is the operating pushrod, which has a locking nut - loosen this nut and turn the rod, untill the freeplay is within specification.

 

Hint:

 

More freeplay = lower clutch bite point, but too low, may cause dragging(difficulty in selecting gears when stationary)

 

Less freeplay = higher clutch bite point, but too much can cause slippage and pemature release bearing failure.

 

Clutch pedal height is also adjustable, at the top of the clutch pedal there is a heaight adjustment bolt.

 

 

 

Standard Clutches

 

Our Standard clutch for MR2 turbo and GT4 is a Toyota genuine kit

 

This kit is ideal for standard cars or mildly tuned examples - Normal Clutch wear rate is very low.

 

Torque guide - Standard

 

 

 

Stage 1 Uprated Organic kit consists of -

 

Heavy Duty 30% uprated cover, with modified leverage ratios which keep pedal operation light.

 

Organic Driveplate using High Performance friction material, and a heavy duty sprung centre hub.

 

Genuine Toyota release bearing.

 

This kit is ideal for cars producing up to 273 ft/lb (372 nm) Torque. It provides a very progressive engagement, making it very driver friendly and ideal for cars that spend all day in heavy traffic. Normal Clutch wear rate is very low.

 

Torque guide - 273 FT/LBS*

 

 

 

Stage 1 Helix Uprated Cerametallic kit consists of -

 

A modified standard rated clutch cover.

 

Ceramettalic 4 paddle driveplate with a heavy duty sprung centre hub.

 

Genuine Toyota release bearing.

 

It still provides a progressive engagement and it will still be friendly for road use, The cerametallic drive plate will keep its friction properties to a much higher temperature than the organic material, hence making the clutch more durable for mild track and drag days. By using a standard rated cover the price is kept down to a minimum. Normal clutch wear rate is mid to low, depending on slippage - ceramettalic plates wear quicker than organic when slipped.

 

Torque guide - 273FT/LBS*

 

 

 

Stage 2 Helix Uprated Ceramettalic kit consists of -

 

Heavy Duty 30% uprated cover, with modified leverage ratios which keep pedal operation light.

 

Ceramettalic 4 paddle driveplate with a heavy duty sprung centre hub.

 

Genuine Toyota release bearing.

 

This kit is one of the most amazing single plate clutches in the world today, It still provides a progressive engagement and it will still be friendly for road use, The ceramettalic drive plate keeps its friction properties to a much higher temperature than the organic material.

 

Normal clutch wear rate is mid to low, depending on slippage - ceramettalic plates wear quicker than organic when slipped.

 

Torque guide - 360 FT/LBS*

 

Blitz Active

 

This kit is complete with Flywheel, It has a single cerramettalic, sprung centred drive plate. The pedal feel is light and take up is progressive, making it road driveable.Normal clutch wear rate is mid to low, depending on slippage - ceramettalic plates wear quicker than organic when slipped.

 

Torque guide - 300 FT/LBS*

 

 

Fensport Racing

 

Our own clutch kit`s have been developed from our own cars and comes complete with lightweight steel flywheel, release bearing and carrier. They are fully rebuildable with all parts available seperately.

 

Fensport Racing Twin Plate

 

The twin non sprung driveplates are still progressive to engage, and the pedal effort is low, making this clutch easy to drive on the road. This clutch has been designed for endurance and Rallying, using much thicker friction materials will make this clutch last. Normal clutch wear rate is low - depending on slippage.

 

Weight with Flywheel approx 8.75kgs

 

Torque guide - 475 FT/LBS*

 

Fensport Racing Triple Plate

 

This clutch is designed with a high ratio cover to further increase clamping force, Pedal effot is medium, but still driveable on the road. This clutch has been designed for Racing use, The triple plates provide much more torque transfer capability than any other twin, making this unit a very cost effective choice for serious drag use.

 

Normal clutch wear rate is medium - depending on slippage.

 

Weight with Flywheel approx 9kgs

 

Torque guide - over 550 FT/LBS*

 

Torque Guide* - Please note:

 

After extensive testing of most of the above units, the figures we have quoted are designed to help you choose the correct fitment for you particular needs, Most of the above figures can be bettered but please be aware there needs to be a safe limit, this limit may vary due to installation and driver technique.

 

Please call our sales staff if you require further assistance.

[Jez G 6 1 Cars]

Ok, thanks for the reply guys! but i've not actually got a definite answer,

 

Sounds like what sandy first suggested sounded the best option, a cerametallic plate with the standard cover...

 

So what is the difference between organic / sintered / cerametallic?

 

And how do i know what paddle plat to buy?

 

and whats the difference between solid centre and sprung centre?

sounds like i'm getting advice on what chocolates to buy lol!

 

Rik

 

P.S - Can yuo tell i'm new to clutches!?!

 

 

organic - friction material (facings) made from a base material wound from moulded material including brass or kevlar looks like wound string. Good for every use 99% of road cars use this as the construction all features some cusion to make the take up nice and smoth i.e. not grabby or juddery .Think of it similar to brake pad material. prome to denature if overheated dueing launch, will not recover once cooked.

 

Sintered - a metalic friction material is dircetly moulded onto a steel plate usulaly around 2.63mm thick, used in race aplications where heat generation is not to great. i.e one standing start and not to much else. on cushion prone to judder and harsh take up.

 

Cerametallic - the same friction material as sintered usualy around 7mm thick (or to suit the standard cp thickness) will absorb more heat. quit often used in performace road cars. Also prone to judder and sharp take up with no cushion.

 

Spring centres - can be used with all the above. the centre damper springs absorb the frequencies from the engine that cause the gear box to rattle (and anything else in the car !) use to solve NVH issues. All road car OE plate have spring centre plates for comfort.

 

Solid centres - used with all the above. Will make your gear box sound like it is falling apart and rattle like mad. has an ulimited torque capcacity.

 

Rember changing the type of plate will not increas the torque capacty of the clutch. only increasing the clamp load in the cover will do that (or fitting a multi-plate or bigger clutch) sintered and Cereametallic option are only ther to resist abuse.

 

Jez

 

(resident clutch nurd )

[Rik 0]

On to my next question then! Thanks for all the info so far guys,

 

I've narrowed my search down to the following spec of clutch...

 

Single Plate Cerametallic Sprung Centre.

 

from the following manufacturers:

Helix

Valeo

AP

Alcon

 

Most likely going to specify about 200lb/ft for the torque to be on the safe side.

 

Whats the disadvantages of over specifying the torque?

 

can anyone suggest who i should be buying from?

 

Rik

[Hoopster 0 2 Cars]

Ive got an AP racing clutch in my Gutmann Turbo, that copes with the 210ft lb of torque mine kicks out, done over 15k with it, and it still feels like new, only ever slipped a couple of times, but they were in extreme conditions.

 

Just a reconmendation!

[brianthemagical 1]

Whats the disadvantages of over specifying the torque?

 

heavy clutch if it uses an uprated pressure plate.

[Rik 0]

Well i'll be using the standard, cover and most lilely going for a single plate cerametallic clutch, rated at 206lb/ft.

 

Rik

[base-1 17]

The companies will likely all only have one compound that suits your spec, above it's rated limit with the standard cover you will have to use a heavier sprung cover. Dunno about the others but Helix can easily make you a cover with slightly more clamping force if you specify it, they do it for my old work all the time

[Rik 0]

Base-1 - you've confused me!

 

I was lead to believe from what everone has been saying on this thread that using a standard cover will be fine...?

 

I was going to go for this helix part number - 63-210R

 

Rik

[cybernck 400 1 Cars]

i've had no probs with using my sinter 4-paddle unsprung plate with a standard cover and release bearing.

[Rik 0]

What type do u use?

 

Whats it drvie like Cybernck? And whats your torque/bhp?

 

Rik

[MartinR 0]

being a bit of a clutch "noob" myself, what type is a standard one?

 

Organic / Sintered / Cerametallic

 

Or is standard in a class of its own.........

 

(apologies for the semi thread hijack)

[Rik 0]

Read page two - at a guess its Organic!

 

Ordered mine now anyway!

 

Rik

[Sam 4]

I still know of a few people running standard valeo clutches with turbos and even one guy locally (back home) with a 400bhp gti6 lump with a standard clutch!

 

I've gone for this little 5.5" clutch and flywheel from AP, its going to be a switch for sure, its twin plate but I could go triple plate if needed (doubt it). Its good for about 400lbft.