ORB 227 1 Cars Posted November 27, 2006 OK So I have a complete 405 SRi Engine and a few 205 Engines. What can you tell me about the 405 Engine? Is it better/worse than the GTi 205 engine? Torque? BHP? Any advanages/issues with this motor? Cheers ORB Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ORB 227 1 Cars Posted November 27, 2006 oh, the head looks different on the 405 head, but will a 1.9 gti head fit? will it be on a par with a standard 1.9 gti engine after? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ahl 4 Posted November 27, 2006 Try a search, lots of posts on this. The engine has less HP, but more torque. Due to different cylinder head, cam, engine management etc. It is a straight fit though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonofsam 5 Posted November 28, 2006 (edited) Is it the XU9JAZ 122bhp DKZ engine? If so I want your cam Edited November 28, 2006 by sonofsam Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KRISKARRERA 2 1 Cars Posted November 28, 2006 127lbs torque and 125bhp. Probably better if you're a low rev merchant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pug_ham 240 3 Cars Posted November 28, 2006 Is it the XU9JAZ 122bhp DKZ engine? If so I want your cam No, they aren't. They are the XU9JA D6D usually found in the 405 SRi & BX GTi. Graham. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sandy 189 Posted November 28, 2006 The cam is different duration and less exhaust lift than the 1.9GTi. As standard the ports are a bit restrictive on top end, but with the right work, a friend of mine has typically been getting 10-15bhp more out of this head compared to his similarly specced 1.9GTi heads. The trouble is that you can't bolt it straight on, to get the CR high enough you need to build a bottom end specifically for it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
veloce200 3 Posted November 28, 2006 The cam is different duration and less exhaust lift than the 1.9GTi. As standard the ports are a bit restrictive on top end, but with the right work, a friend of mine has typically been getting 10-15bhp more out of this head compared to his similarly specced 1.9GTi heads. The trouble is that you can't bolt it straight on, to get the CR high enough you need to build a bottom end specifically for it. hi Sandy do you know full spec of the cam? I have one of these and am considering for my forthcoming turbo build. when it was in the head I noticed there was no lift at TDC which should suit a turbo. i was going to use the head but I think for turbo build it's a lot of work and expense - better flow but spark plug location is worse. back to topic - if you want a decent atmo engine i reckon this head with 1.6 pistons and bodies would make a great little engine for not a lot of cash. only problem is need for a tricky custom manifold Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sandy 189 Posted November 28, 2006 There's a pic of the 1.8 306 Mark Shillaber did with this head and TB's in Dave walker's Engine Management book, it was a stonking engine and sounded fantastic as it screamed up the hill, kind of like half a DFV! He had two manifolds cast specially, one poked the horn's out of the bonnet, but was rejected by the scrotes, the other is pictured in Dave Wlakers book. The cam timing at 1mm is 6:6' to 48 inlet and 43:14' to 1:6' exhaust, peak inlet is 11.4mm and exhaust 10.3mm (got one right behind me now!). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
veloce200 3 Posted November 29, 2006 There's a pic of the 1.8 306 Mark Shillaber did with this head and TB's in Dave walker's Engine Management book, it was a stonking engine and sounded fantastic as it screamed up the hill, kind of like half a DFV! He had two manifolds cast specially, one poked the horn's out of the bonnet, but was rejected by the scrotes, the other is pictured in Dave Wlakers book. The cam timing at 1mm is 6:6' to 48 inlet and 43:14' to 1:6' exhaust, peak inlet is 11.4mm and exhaust 10.3mm (got one right behind me now!). i never spotted that - lent it to someone - mmm never see that again as they have disappeared ! cast for dcoe patterns? wonder how much a recast would be? I've pretty much decided to go 1.6 turbo - although this puts me over 2l in the east (same class as 2l in west ??) it'll more fun on trackdays, prob finish no worse in sprints than under 2l (which is MUCH more competitive than over 2l!) will be a fraction of the cost of a 220hp MI 16 and will do over 45mpg on a cruise...it's going to be cheap, green and mean! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
veloce200 3 Posted November 29, 2006 (edited) There's a pic of the 1.8 306 Mark Shillaber did with this head and TB's in Dave walker's Engine Management book, it was a stonking engine and sounded fantastic as it screamed up the hill, kind of like half a DFV! He had two manifolds cast specially, one poked the horn's out of the bonnet, but was rejected by the scrotes, the other is pictured in Dave Wlakers book. The cam timing at 1mm is 6:6' to 48 inlet and 43:14' to 1:6' exhaust, peak inlet is 11.4mm and exhaust 10.3mm (got one right behind me now!). i'm confused by the timing figs i'm used to seeing eg 6/48 43/14 can you elaborate? is that correct eg duration 234 inlet 237 exhaust? do you know what LCA it's on? thx Edited November 29, 2006 by veloce200 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sandy 189 Posted November 29, 2006 i'm confused by the timing figs i'm used to seeing eg 6/48 43/14 can you elaborate? is that correct eg duration 234 inlet 237 exhaust? do you know what LCA it's on? thx I was using a colon as degree symbol, if there is a degree symbol I don't know how to get it! So, long hand... Inlet opens 1mm at 6 degrees 6 minutes BTDC Inlet closes 1mm at 48 degrees ABDC Inlet duration over 1mm lift is 234 degrees 6 minutes, approximate peak angle 111 degrees ATDC Exhaust opens 1mm at 43 degrees 14 minutes BBDC Exhaust closes 1mm at 1 degree 6 minutes ATDC Exhaust duration over 1mm lift is 224 degrees 20 minutes, approximate peak angle 111 degrees ABDC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
veloce200 3 Posted November 29, 2006 I was using a colon as degree symbol, if there is a degree symbol I don't know how to get it! So, long hand... Inlet opens 1mm at 6 degrees 6 minutes BTDC Inlet closes 1mm at 48 degrees ABDC Inlet duration over 1mm lift is 234 degrees 6 minutes, approximate peak angle 111 degrees ATDC Exhaust opens 1mm at 43 degrees 14 minutes BBDC Exhaust closes 1mm at 1 degree 6 minutes ATDC Exhaust duration over 1mm lift is 224 degrees 20 minutes, approximate peak angle 111 degrees ABDC ah I see - blimey I've never seen minutes quoted even by the cam makers - very precise Thanks- i take it you measured this yourself? seems like a pretty ideal cam for turbo'ing a 205. (their must be some lift @ TDC i can't remember it looking that way when installed) As for the 405 Sri engine I think in atmo form it would probably respond very well to a 205 GTI 1.6 or 1.9 cam but I suspect the tuned lengths of the inlet manifold might mean the torque output was not as impressive. Seeing as this may be a useful reference for people would you be so kind to publish the std 1.9 gti cam figures as I've tried a search but no luck. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonofsam 5 Posted November 29, 2006 DKZ - 0.445" lift, ? deg. @ 0.050" That is the Cam Im trying to source at the moment! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sandy 189 Posted November 29, 2006 I don't have the 205 GTi cam specs to hand, but basically the same with more overlap from memory. There's something in the main site technical pages iirc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
veloce200 3 Posted November 29, 2006 DKZ - 0.445" lift, ? deg. @ 0.050" That is the Cam Im trying to source at the moment! get your hands on xu9j2 cam - reckon it's a better cam allround than DKZ and more common Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
veloce200 3 Posted November 29, 2006 (edited) get your hands on xu9j2 cam - reckon it's a better cam allround than DKZ and more common ok more analysis of cams (sorry about the thread hijack ORB but it is all related to finding the best solution to Atmo and turbo 205/405 hybrids!) ___________1.6 1.9 Sri In/opens____8 11.5 1 In/closes____42 43 48 Duration____230 234.5 234 LCA________107 105.75 111 Ex/Opens___40.5 46 43 Ex/Closes__2.5 2 1 LCA_______109 112 111 Duration____223 228 224 so from the above one can see how the SRI cam improves low end torque with retarded inlet. without actual lift at tdc figures it's hard to say which is best for turbo but it seems that the 1.9 overlap is on inlet only so ideal for turbo. for atmo I would say the 1.9 cam would be best in a 405 engine but only with raised compression. Looking at the inlet/exhaust LCA for 1.9 cam (it closely resembles suburu turbo specific cams) it actually looks like it is probably the best cam for a turbo engine as well. what does anyone else think ? Edited November 29, 2006 by veloce200 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KRISKARRERA 2 1 Cars Posted November 29, 2006 I can put up the cam spec of all phase 1 405 engines if that's any help? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
veloce200 3 Posted November 29, 2006 I can put up the cam spec of all phase 1 405 engines if that's any help? the spec listed is for the downdraft port version - there are others I take it? could be useful ! thanks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
