The Variousthrottle Bodies And Management Systems

[mos 1]

hi,

 

as the description says i am a newbie to this throttle bodies and management stuff having previously been a twin carbs and dizzy person.

there are so many different options available you dont know where to start.

like a lot of people i understand the basics of what these sytems do but when you get into the technicalities it can be a bit daunting to say the least.

what i want ideally is a complete kit from a supplier that includes everything i am going to need including a wiring loom. although i do intend to mount the ecu in 306 style plastic battery box so i will not need to splice this into the existing 205 loom to much, good job really as a lot of the original injection loom was removed when i fittrd the carbs!

at the moment i am steering in the direction of KMS gear through QEP which seems from what i have picked up on here to be good value and also has the added benefit of possessing a self mapping fuctionality to get you 90% of the way there and the remaining 10% comes from a mapping on a rolling road.

am i right in my assessment of the KMS system or am i wide of the mark

i know there are also a multitude of other different suppliers out there such as emerald, dta, weber, megasquirt etc to name but a few.

 

what i am wondering is what peoples thought/experiences are of the various options available, are some systems clearly better than others and what are my best options for a complete throttle bodies/managment kit.

an idea of price would be useful to.

 

p.s should of mentioned that the engine i am using is a 2.0ltr s16 donkey.

 

must also be plenty of people out there as inexperienced with this stuff as me who will find this thread useful.

 

thanks

 

mark

Edited August 13, 2006 by mos

[Jonmurgie 2]

I think your first goal should be to set a budget as that will effect your ultimate decision. Without that you should spend some time searching the forum as most options have been discussed before

 

So, give us your budget and we can make a few suggestions based on that

[mos 1]

budget will be circa £2,000 may be a bit more

i did doa search, in fact i looked through all the threads that have been started on this sectiob of the forum

most deal with a specific technical problem someone has encounter while fitted or using aftermarket managment but i was unable to find a thread dealing with the general stuff, as to which system are better etc

hence i though i would start a thread to that effect

 

thanks

 

mark

[inferno 1]

well im going to go one of two ways... with management this is.

 

my plan is an mi16 initialy, uprgrading to a steel block 2.1 with higher CR, then adding nitrous.

 

my local rolling road work with DTA, so advised me to get a ecu from them, i would be able to map myself, but if i get into dificulties i know there there to help. If i used emerald, they wouldnt have the full knowledge of that ecu.

cost of parts and mapping--- 800-1800 !

 

my other option is megasquirt, several people on here seem to know a lot about it, so im hoping if i go this route for cheepness, ill get all the support i need!

cost of parts and mapping---300-600 (hopefully!)

[dee205 3]

It's six of one half a dozen of the other really. Some managment can do the basic spark and fuel and some have more add-ons and extras than an F1 car!

 

More and more people are turning to bike bodies and get good results for less money. More of a unique setup then.

 

Might be worth while checking your area for guys that can setup and map the management you have first. You don't want to have to drive 300 mile to get he car mapped after you put a new cam in or something.

 

 

Damien

[Sandy 189]

Who is going to map it? That's the most important question, there are endless tales of people struggling to get it mapped well.

 

The KMS is a good option on the basis that QEP are a very friendly and helpful bunch who can supply all the parts you need. I found it laborious to map compared to DTA E48, despite the closed loop mapping; but not as bad as Omex or MBE. Why so many mappers are so loyal to Omex baffles me, it's over complicated and the software is all abbreviations and code! I can't recommend Weber as user access is a problem and not many mappers about. If you intend to map it largely yourself, look out for a secondhand DTA E48, many ECUs look the same or better on paper, but in my experience it's simply the most user friendly.

[damien 22 1 Cars]

ive just done bike bodies on my gti6 running kms, some details - http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=60578&hl=

[mos 1]

Who is going to map it? That's the most important question, there are endless tales of people struggling to get it mapped well.

 

The KMS is a good option on the basis that QEP are a very friendly and helpful bunch who can supply all the parts you need. I found it laborious to map compared to DTA E48, despite the closed loop mapping; but not as bad as Omex or MBE. Why so many mappers are so loyal to Omex baffles me, it's over complicated and the software is all abbreviations and code! I can't recommend Weber as user access is a problem and not many mappers about. If you intend to map it largely yourself, look out for a secondhand DTA E48, many ECUs look the same or better on paper, but in my experience it's simply the most user friendly.

 

to be honest my experience with this will probably lead me down the route of having it entirely mapped for me.

i may change my mind on this once its up and running so to speak, and i can actually see what i can and cant do with the system.

one of the attractions on the KMS stuff is matt at QEP has told me that mikeanics in congleton has experience now with the KMS gear, they seem to have a good reputation and quite a few people on here seem to recommend them so i am fairly confident they will do me a good job

 

but nothing decided as of yet as its all new to me and i dont want to make a mistake

thats why i decide to canvass opinion, its interesting to see what you guys think and you get an honest appraisal as your not trying to sell me your particular system.

 

thanks

 

mark

Edited August 14, 2006 by mos

[smckeown 1]

As advised I would spend more time researching the mains ECUs, like OMEX, Emerald, DTA and KMS (in no particular order).

 

Yes mikeanics maps KMS, as does track and road powerformance in kent; but both of them also map lots of other ecu's also.

 

The pro's for KMS stuff is the fantastic customer service from QEP (really top class) as well as good price. The con in my experience is that takes longer to map KMS, as it doesn't support 3d maps.

 

Also consider 2nd hand ecu's, you can get good savings. Unforunately you have to pay for the firmware to be upgraded in the DTA e48 for example, whereas it's user driven and free for KMS.

 

This means you wil lstill walk away with a proper map after your mapping session, but if the mapper is a perfectionist like track and road, then he said it would take longer to make the map as perfect as he can get with something like DTA> Unless your chasing every bit of power and smoothmess possible this may not be an issue.

 

Sean

Edited August 14, 2006 by smckeown

[petert 550]

As advised I would spend more time researching the mains ECUs, like OMEX, Emerald, DTA and KMS (in no particular order).

 

Then of course there's Motec, Autronic and Haltech. The later being the most user friendly I've seen.

[Jonmurgie 2]

mmmm... motec

 

Though, if I were doing it again I'd probably go with KMS or Omex and save a small fortune!

[Dream Weaver 2]

I'm taking mine to Mikeanics in Congleton this Thursday, so that should give an idea of whether bike bodies are good or not.

 

I have an Emerald, so Mike can obviously map them, and he is close enough to you mos.

 

If I get a decent result using the bike bodies, then that would be a decent route to take - cost me approx £1400 all in for bodies, filter, sensors, wiring loom, Emerald etc, just needed a bit of graft to get it all working.

[veloce200 3]

the thing to remember with self map is you need a wideband probe...

Being a KMS dealer and Emerald dealer I can say KMS has the edge for setup with it's selftest functions, is way better for boost applications also. Emerald is faster to change on the fly and easier to self map with no wideband lambda but more expensive. Ulitimately though you have to go RR for best results so really I'd recommend KMS as it's great value for money. I have a lot more time on my hands than Matt so if you want to ask me questions about any aspect of these systems please let me know.

[cybernck 400 1 Cars]

i think sean told me KMS actually required quite a bit more time on the rollers

than Emerald M3D (at least for the initial mappeing?) which makes it more

expensive as a pakcage?

[Sam 4]

Why so many mappers are so loyal to Omex baffles me, it's over complicated and the software is all abbreviations and code!

 

I'm not defending the Omex here (like I care, once its mapped you can quite often leave it alone) but it doesn't take much to work out the abbreviations, its certainly a bonus to have much more to play with than not enough. It's just a case of finding the person to use all the extra settings/complication. If your mapper knows Omex well then its obviously going to be better to take that to him than any other ECU?

[d-9 0]

i think sean told me KMS actually required quite a bit more time on the rollers

than Emerald M3D (at least for the initial mappeing?) which makes it more

expensive as a pakcage?

 

I suspect this is simply because KMS is still very new and most mappers havent found their way around it yet. The KMS software is also shonky as hell and breaks/bombs out with useless error messages in various circumstances, which would likely confuse the mapper.

 

As for the throttle bodies themselves, theres a few options, Jenveys are the ones that everyone has, around £1500 for the kit, QEP I think do direct to head mi16 bodies, which look very sweet, for about £1000iirc, and Ive heard that colin satchel does lotus throttle bodies on a modified mi16 manifold for £550, which dont have the bling factor of the others, but are a serious bargain. (Think bono and sandy have them on their cars now).

 

 

Ive got KMS on the 106 and it seems to do the job pretty well, it was a complete nightmare to set up for a novice like me, what I should have done was towed the car to a mapper and given them a huge amount of money, but i assumed that as im reasonably smart and can occasionaly read the instructions that Id be able to work it out. The KMS instructions are very brief, even with the dave walker engine management book in one hand, theyre still not very understandable, and when i last looked the software had been updated but the manual hadnt, so there were a number of settings that made no sense at all. Luckily matt sav was exceptionally helpful and was patient enough to explain it all to me one evening over the phone, at which point the ecu got on and sorted itself out.

Edited August 14, 2006 by d-9

[Sandy 189]

I've used the KMS on the rollers and the lack of instant adjustment is a real chore, if log pot knobs can be attached to it then it would be alot quicker, but we couldn't see how. It's also frustrating that you can't view ignition and fuel maps simultaneously and you have to second guess where you are in the between the sites. It's not difficult, just more time consuming and everything needs to be rechecked alot. On the one I did the lambda correction map had made a useful difference, but to say it had mapped itself, would be a bit generous. It seems to be a good ECU with lots of very useful features, so don't get me wrong, I would happily have one myself, I just find the DTA E48 faster and easier to use, even though it has less potential and sometimes goes weird!

 

I stand by what i said about the OMEX software, alot of the details I think aren't useful at all, probably just evolved over time into the way it is. You won't get a better mapped engine because of the details of the ECU, it's just more complicated, for example, setting up the teeth before TDC details is hideously complex, with several different parts of the software swinging it. also the feature that limits injector duration, i really don't see the point of that, i'll decide when i'm pushing my luck on duty cycle! The 600 seems to have alot of useful aspects that the DTA E48 lacks, but it's no more useful in those respects than the KMS as far as i can tell and is more expensive. I think the loyalty to Omex by some is probably based more on history and/or service/support than anything else.

[smckeown 1]

i think sean told me KMS actually required quite a bit more time on the rollers

than Emerald M3D (at least for the initial mappeing?) which makes it more

expensive as a pakcage?

 

I said for the perfect map you would need longer than something with 3d maps. I still got a good map in about 3-4 hours that the perfectionist mapper was happy with within the time period

 

I've used the KMS on the rollers and the lack of instant adjustment is a real chore, if log pot knobs can be attached to it then it would be alot quicker,

 

Yeah Steve Greenauld said the same, would make it a lot quicker.

 

I think as a clubman oriented the KMS is excellent value and with the aftersales service from QEP makes them a serios contender . Having an overly complex ECU is not what you want for these type of cars

[niklas 1]

Even though it might not be a complete out-of-the box solution I would definitely count Megasquirt and VEMS as serious contenders too!

[rich_w 0]

I was looking at the VEMS webshop and they now have a motronic connector which I believe suits the MI16 loom (I could be wrong).

 

They also do pre-built units and they don't seem to have any import duties either....

 

I still haven't finished my VEMS but I hope to have it done soon (need to motivate my arse!)

[niklas 1]

I was looking at the VEMS webshop and they now have a motronic connector which I believe suits the MI16 loom (I could be wrong).

 

They also do pre-built units and they don't seem to have any import duties either....

 

I still haven't finished my VEMS but I hope to have it done soon (need to motivate my arse!)

 

Just to add, many places sell Megasquirt pre-built as well! Even though myself I enjoy a couple of soldering hours

[jackherer 543]

I was looking at the VEMS webshop and they now have a motronic connector which I believe suits the MI16 loom (I could be wrong).

 

that would be convenient if Mi16 looms were 5-6 years old, but they are 15-16 + years old and half the reason I would fit aftermarket management is to get rid of the old unreliable loom.

[rich_w 0]

that would be convenient if Mi16 looms were 5-6 years old, but they are 15-16 + years old and half the reason I would fit aftermarket management is to get rid of the old unreliable loom.

 

That's what I'm doing!, i'm sure there's people that would love to keep there old loom

 

 

Just to add, many places sell Megasquirt pre-built as well! Even though myself I enjoy a couple of soldering hours

 

They seem to be subject of import taxes here in the UK (well stuff coming from the states!) just giving people another option

[veloce200 3]

I've used the KMS on the rollers and the lack of instant adjustment is a real chore, if log pot knobs can be attached to it then it would be alot quicker, but we couldn't see how.

 

this is the biggest plus of Emerald. I have on many occasions now got cars running on the road after installing TB's reasonably well on my own with just a few presses - 4 keys to control spark and fuel across the whole map- laptop sitting next to me! KMS is a two man job. I have relayed this to Matt and hopefully they will have it in the next release as it's a real chore otherwise. I was base mapping a friends Golf recently and when you are messing about with a highly tuned engine you need to be able to pull spark/add or subtract fuel really fast !

[Sandy 189]

Absolutely, I hope they can revise it.