8v Track Car Engine Sick

[smckeown 1]

Well after the mild spriting driving last weekend, i was unhappy with the sounds it was making afterwards. It sounded tappety, especially under light load. So as i needed an ECU swap and needed to drop QEP's lambda probe and spare trumpets off, i drove over to matt, and to get his opinion.

 

He agreed to give it a drive and as we were pulling out of his place, doing like 10mph and 2000 rpm and then the serious rattle started. Perfect timing to break down

 

Aftet towing the car back to his place, he did an initial inspection with the cam cover off and it seems a valve spring has gone (PumaRacing race valve spring system good for circa 8200 rpm), and the cam has been scored, so that's now a dud. Anyone want an expensive coffee table leg ?

 

The head will come off soon for a full inspection, hopefully nothing else has been damaged.

 

As the cam is now fubar, matt's advising a possible cam change to the GrpA spec, but i'll need more mapping...it's certainly tempting

 

I'll defo miss the bedford track day

 

Sean

[Bono 0]

the spring just snapped?

thats not very useful! will the valve not have fallen down and hit the pistons?

[smckeown 1]

fingers crossed, that's why the head has to come off for a full inspection

[feb 47]

that's unlucky.

 

Hope everything else is ok. Don't you have a guaranty(sp)?

[smckeown 1]

I remembered what it was last night, and the guarantee is "that it would start". So even though i'm annoyed with Jackherer for removing my 'FAO PR' post, it's not necessary now

 

This project is jinxed

[boombang 2]

I wouldn't worry about a guarantee at all - basic sale of goods act covers you 100% in relation to something being fit for the purpose and obviously if a valve spring breaks in an engine its not fit at all.

 

A simple "I reject these goods...." type letter sent by registered post and they have the option of refund, repair, replace depending what is cheapest for them.

[jackherer 543]

i'm annoyed with Jackherer for removing my 'FAO PR' post

 

I must have missed whatever it is thats special about you and means the rules don't apply like they do to everyone else?

 

Its understandable that you are upset but that doesn't justify the things you posted last night or the pm you sent to me this morning. I am sure you wouldn't have spoken to me in person like that.

[hengti 2]

that's sh*te luck Sean

hope you can sort it to satisfaction without too much agro

[smckeown 1]

I must have missed whatever it is thats special about you and means the rules don't apply like they do to everyone else?

 

Its understandable that you are upset but that doesn't justify the things you posted last night or the pm you sent to me this morning. I am sure you wouldn't have spoken to me in person like that.

 

There are 20 or so active posts with FAO in the title across all forums. Maybe the admins should clamp down on the s*it stirers rather than the honest folk on the forum.

 

Anyway this is going off topic

[jackherer 543]

There are 20 or so active posts with FAO in the title across all forums. Maybe the admins should clamp down on the s*it stirers rather than the honest folk on the forum.

 

Anyway this is going off topic

 

The topics that attract the moderators attention tend to be the ones that are reported to us via PMs.

 

The fact that it was an FAO post was the tip of the iceberg when it came to rules that had been broken, your attitude is what made me move your thread to the moderation forum.

 

This current thread doesn't break any rules and serves exactly the same purpose for you, if you'd posted this last night it would have still been here at 5am or thereabouts when pumaracing was last online.

[smckeown 1]

You are talking rubbish, I won't continue this conversation on this thread

[Alastairh 47]

Unlucky, shame its going bang considering the money you've invested in the engine.

 

Alastair

[jackherer 543]

You are talking rubbish, I won't continue this conversation on this thread

 

you're skating on pretty thin ice Sean, you obviously didn't click on the link in my last post.

[PumaRacing 1]

Well after the mild spriting driving last weekend, i was unhappy with the sounds it was making afterwards. It sounded tappety, especially under light load. So as i needed an ECU swap and needed to drop QEP's lambda probe and spare trumpets off, i drove over to matt, and to get his opinion.

 

So you identified a minor engine problem and then continued to drive the car until that turned into a major engine problem. I'm grateful to you for pointing that out on a public forum.

 

 

He agreed to give it a drive and as we were pulling out of his place, doing like 10mph and 2000 rpm and then the serious rattle started. Perfect timing to break down

 

Aftet towing the car back to his place, he did an initial inspection with the cam cover off and it seems a valve spring has gone (PumaRacing race valve spring system good for circa 8200 rpm), and the cam has been scored, so that's now a dud. Anyone want an expensive coffee table leg ?

 

The head will come off soon for a full inspection, hopefully nothing else has been damaged.

 

As the cam is now fubar, matt's advising a possible cam change to the GrpA spec, but i'll need more mapping...it's certainly tempting

 

I'll defo miss the bedford track day

 

Sean

 

Valve springs very rarely just break for no good reason and clearly this isn't what happened in your case. When a valve spring breaks that cylinder stops working, the engine only runs on three cylinders, the valve probably hits the piston and the engine makes noises that even a novice driver would find hard to ignore. In fact the sort of noises it probably made when you finally stopped driving it. There are a number of possible scenarios but what possibly happened in your case was it spat a valve shim which then lodged on top of the valve cap and caused the spring to go coilbound. The engine will then continue to run on four cylinders albeit rattling somewhat until finally the overloaded spring breaks and the cam lobe gets wiped off. However it relies on the driver continuing to run the engine despite the rattling noise before the minor problem turns into a major rebuild.

 

If at the point you identified an unusual noise you'd stopped driving the car it might have been possible to find out what had happened and easily fix it. At this point the witness marks of the original cause are probably buried under a trail of carnage.

 

I don't know what was posted in the things Kieren (Jackherer) had to remove from the forum last night but what is it about you that stops you behaving like a mensch? I'm now losing count of your posts that have had to be removed from the forum because they break the rules.

Edited August 12, 2006 by PumaRacing

[phatgti 0]

Lol and a public forum is just the place to slate your engine builder.

 

ho ho ho.

 

If you have a new engine you don't keep running it if its making a funny noise.

 

are they tophat shims?

[smckeown 1]

Lol and a public forum is just the place to slate your engine builder.

 

Here we go another s*it stirer. Where do i slate him, i dont, i relate facts. Tosser

[j_turnell 134 3 Cars]

Im running the pugsport groupAdouble valve springs with the "top hat" shims" as Wayne describes and had one come off. But it ran on 3 and the noise was very loud! Just measure your valve clearances.

 

The cam was removed and the shim was fooked as a result. On mine the gap between the top of the valve and the collets is aroun 2.2mm so it doesnt give the shims much to sit on.

 

Here we go another s*it stirer. Where do i slate him, i dont, i relate facts. Tosser

 

 

Are you really this much of an arsehole in real life....

[PumaRacing 1]

Lol and a public forum is just the place to slate your engine builder.

 

ho ho ho.

 

If you have a new engine you don't keep running it if its making a funny noise.

 

are they tophat shims?

 

They're the normal XU9 ones which sit on top of the valve stem in a little recess in the valve cap.

 

Reminds me somewhat of the very first 1.9 205 big valve head I did many years ago for a lad in Cheshire. Some time later after it had been set up on the rollers and he could use it in anger he phoned up and said it's rattling a bit.

 

"Is it still running on all four?"

"yep"

"Is it making a noise like a man juggling tins of bolts while trying to fight off a pack of wolves?"

"Ummm, nope. Just a little rattle."

"Like the tappets need adjusting?"

"yep"

 

I told him he'd probably over-revved it and spat a valve shim. He swore he'd never taken it past 7k or heard any valve bounce. I told him to stop driving it, get it trailered over to my mate Julian's garage in Macclesfield and he'll sort you out. Gave Jules a ring to let him know what was on its way and asked him to check the lad's revcounter out against the Snap-On gear while he was at it.

 

Sure enough, cam out and there's one shim sat on the piss wedged half on the valve stem and half on the cap. Luckily with standard springs and a low lift cam there was enough clearance to avoid coilbind and it hadn't wrecked anything else.

 

An hour later with a new shim back in the hole (big dents in the old one from the edge of the valve stem) and all's well again. Oh and the revcounter was reading over 10% low. At the 7000 the lad thought he was doing he was actually caning it to 7,800 on standard springs.

 

It didn't run for much longer though. He was young and a bit gung-ho and tried to fight a tree with it. The tree won.

 

Several years went by and then out of the blue his younger cousin got in touch. He hadn't even been old enough to drive back then but he'd been taken for a thrash in that 205 and from then he wanted one that went like that. So when he was old enough to drive he got well into 205's and asked me to do him a big valve head the same as his cousin had had. Ummm, so I did. Some customers come back to haunt you in a nice way and some are just a complete....oh that's the front door bell. I'd better dash

Edited August 12, 2006 by PumaRacing

[205007 12]

thats the trouble with chequebook tuning, when something goes wrong you can always find someone else to blame

[smckeown 1]

So you identified a minor engine problem and then continued to drive the car until that turned into a major engine problem. I'm grateful to you for pointing that out on a public forum.

 

It didnt sound major, a light tappety sound (similar to an exhaust manifold crack) doesnt sound major. In fact it was only at the end of the drivi did i have concerns. Durin the drive to QEP it was fine hot and started again light tappety when warm, no thrashing occured. When I got to QEP we had the engine running stationary for 10 mins when it was warm and it sounded fine (i have 2 witnesses), until we started to drive it out of his yard.

 

Valve springs very rarely just break for no good reason and clearly this isn't what happened in your case.

 

I appreciate your past experiance but I have 2 witnesses that will say that all was well when I arrived at QEP, to such an extent a drive was needed to make it clear the under light load noise. So your assumption is flawed. I know what a car running on 3 cylinders sounds and feels like, and under no circumstances did the car ever sounds or feel like that.When a valve spring breaks that cylinder stops working, the engine only runs on three cylinders, the valve probably hits the piston and the engine makes noises that even a novice driver would find hard to ignore. Do you thionk matt or charlie sav would agree to driving my car after they reved it in neutral for 10 mins before agreeing to drive it ? I think not.

 

In fact the sort of noises it probably made when you finally stopped driving it. There are a number of possible scenarios but what possibly happened in your case was it spat a valve shim which then lodged on top of the valve cap and caused the spring to go coilbound. The engine will then continue to run on four cylinders albeit rattling somewhat until finally the overloaded spring breaks and the cam lobe gets wiped off. However it relies on the driver continuing to run the engine despite the rattling noise before the minor problem turns into a major rebuild.

 

The ECU controls rev limits. During mapping the ECU had a hard limit set at 8200. But as I and a neighbour witnessed during mapping the power peaks at ~6600 and tailed off sharp, so they never reved ot passed ~7200 ish absolutely and i mean absolutely no where near over 7500 as there was no point. Since mapping the hard limit was set at 8000, and as you can see i never reved it anywhere near that, there's no point as the power is long gone by then.

 

Are you saying a light tappety noise (sounding similar to a cracked manifold should mean stop engine immediately and not drive afetrwards. Get Real.

 

 

 

If at the point you identified an unusual noise you'd stopped driving the car it might have been possible to find out what had happened and easily fix it. At this point the witness marks of the original cause are probably buried under a trail of carnage.

 

I'n not a mechanic, and it didnt sound major, don't fortget this was aftter the 1st spririted drive and sounded sweet when cold. The next drive was over to QWEP and that was fat from spirited, and only a few miles

 

I don't know what was posted in the things Kieren (Jackherer) had to remove from the forum last night but what is it about you that stops you behaving like a mensch? I'm now losing count of your posts that have had to be removed from the forum because they break the rules.

 

 

As per usual people make the wrong assumption. I posted an honest politically correct post asing you to get in touch (before i remembered your warranty statement). Some pikey then piped up saying this is just another spat between us, and i told him to f*ck off. The post was pulled. I don't appreciate your comment, another unjustified dig

 

 

 

Are you really this much of an arsehole in real life....

 

f*** you

 

I told him he'd probably over-revved it and spat a valve shim. He swore he'd never taken it past 7k or heard any valve bounce. I told him to stop driving it, get it trailered over to my mate Julian's garage in Macclesfield and he'll sort you out. Gave Jules a ring to let him know what was on its way and asked him to check the lad's revcounter out against the Snap-On gear while he was at it.

 

 

As per above, the ECU accurately controls the revs, it's never seen anythere like the max listed as the 8200 listed as the max for your race spring system

 

thats the trouble with chequebook tuning, when something goes wrong you can always find someone else to blame

 

No idea who ure having a go at

[cybernck 400 1 Cars]

I don't know what was posted in the things Kieren (Jackherer) had to remove from the forum last night but what is it about you that stops you behaving like a mensch? I'm now losing count of your posts that have had to be removed from the forum because they break the rules.

a bit late in the topic, but as you said, you didn't know what was going on.

 

since you banned sean from phoning you and he honoured it, tried to email you

but you banned emails too (not to mention PM's), the only way to contact you

was obviously to put up a post here, but the post was composed in a way that

it clashes with the rules (it was a FAO post) but it's an offence as minor as

posting large pics or having wrong content in signature. but to top it off,

someone, also not knowing the background, came along and posted a very

unhelpful reply which provoked sean to reply in abusive manner, hence why

the post got removed.

 

then sean started this thread which isn't against the rules in any way (though

he again gets provoked by some unnecessary replies...) that managed to get

you to get in touch, which was sean's intention with the removed fao thread

in the first place.

 

but if you look at it closely, he tried to contact you and ask for an opinion

before posting it in public. eventhough he's now publically posted about what

has happened with the engine, he doesn't find you directly responsible for it

and actually agrees that the engine is not under warranty and doesn't want

anything from you!

 

one would think, though, that you'd like to help out constructively, it being an

engine built by you afterall, rather than twisting facts and tieing them with his

supposedly repeatedly bad behaviour on the forum and pushing that as the

reason the engine got knackered (or at least i got such an impression). and

it's also a fact that sean doesn't have any warn points so he must not have

done anything critical forum-behaviour wise.

 

finally, sean isn't slating you or your work, so there's no need to reply in

such manner. either help with direct constructive replies (or at least in

your puzzling clue-leaving fashion ), which would help as you've built

the engine in question, or don't reply at all, as the recent accusive replies

aren't helpful at all. sean's main objective is to get the engine fixed asap,

so he could enjoy trackdays (heck, he'll miss his first one already).

 

thanks.

[PumaRacing 1]

one would think, though, that you'd like to help out constructively, it being an

engine built by you afterall, rather than twisting facts and tieing them with his

supposedly repeatedly bad behaviour on the forum and pushing that as the

reason the engine got knackered

 

What on earth are you talking about? Would you like to quote back to me anything I've posted that even remotely resembles any of the above.

 

 

either help with direct constructive replies (or at least in

your puzzling clue-leaving fashion ), which would help as you've built

the engine in question, or don't reply at all, as the recent accusive replies

aren't helpful at all.

 

Again, what on earth are you talking about?

 

Are you actually reading the same thread as everyone else here?

[PumaRacing 1]

It didnt sound major, a light tappety sound (similar to an exhaust manifold crack) doesnt sound major. In fact it was only at the end of the drivi did i have concerns. Durin the drive to QEP it was fine hot and started again light tappety when warm, no thrashing occured. When I got to QEP we had the engine running stationary for 10 mins when it was warm and it sounded fine (i have 2 witnesses), until we started to drive it out of his yard.

I appreciate your past experiance but I have 2 witnesses that will say that all was well when I arrived at QEP, to such an extent a drive was needed to make it clear the under light load noise. So your assumption is flawed. I know what a car running on 3 cylinders sounds and feels like, and under no circumstances did the car ever sounds or feel like that.

 

Because the valve spring hadn't broken at that stage as I said in the first place.

 

 

 

When a valve spring breaks that cylinder stops working, the engine only runs on three cylinders, the valve probably hits the piston and the engine makes noises that even a novice driver would find hard to ignore. Do you thionk matt or charlie sav would agree to driving my car after they reved it in neutral for 10 mins before agreeing to drive it ? I think not.

 

Again, because the valve spring hadn't broken at that stage.

 

 

Are you saying a light tappety noise (sounding similar to a cracked manifold should mean stop engine immediately and not drive afetrwards. Get Real.

 

Common sense would say that if you have an expensive and highly tuned engine which starts making an identifiable noise which wasn't there to start with you try and find out what is causing it before running the engine again. Checking the tappet clearances takes very little time and will identify a bounced shim, a bad valve seat, a badly bent valve or a seized valve and hopefully spot a broken valve spring at the same time. A compression test takes even less time and will confirm a number of faults including some of the above. Engines very rarely make strange noises which then get better all by themself.

 

Obviously I can't just pluck out of thin air the exact reason for what has happened here given I haven't heard the noises or examined the parts. However, all I can say, as I have done, is this is not as simple as a valve spring just breaking or the engine would have stopped running properly immediately. Other than a bounced shim it's hard to think of anything that would first cause a tappety sound and later a broken spring and also damage the cam.

 

Valves and guides are basically bullet proof in this type of engine. Cams rarely give trouble in the 1.9 and even if a lobe was bad or soft this wouldn't affect the valve spring. Every 1.6 XU engine that's ever been made gets worn lobes eventually but the valve springs don't break.

 

Conversely, the valve spring is completely hidden under and separated from the cam lobe by the lifter bucket. A broken spring wouldn't score the cam lobe because it comes nowhere near it.

 

So clearly something has happened but it is more complex than just a spring breaking. It would very likely have been possible to find the cause at the time the tapping noise started but possibly not now after further things have broken.

 

If Matt wants to post the head to me *exactly* as it comes off the engine with no relevant parts (other than exhaust/inlet studs, thermostat housing etc) removed or disturbed I may still be able to find out what happened. If any relevant part (valve, guide, lifter, cam, spring) is dismantled then the audit trail will be lost.

 

It may even be that this is not directly to do with the cylinder head components in the first place. A loose screw from an inlet system component can get into a cylinder, bend a valve and cause various damage. It never pays to second guess an engine failure. You follow the audit trail of contact marks and other damage, look for swarf, dirt, debris or broken parts from elsewhere in the engine, signs of detonation or unusual running and piece together the real story of what started to fail and what then subsequently failed.

 

I recall a full race MGB engine I sweated over for many weeks until everything in it was as perfect as I could get it. The owners mechanic then cobbled together an air filter system for the carbs which had loose nuts (by that I mean not tack welded or otherwise secured to the casing) inside the casing rather than outside it. One of those fell off almost immediately in the first race, got sucked into a cylinder and wrote off that piston and the head.

 

It was somewhat aggrieving. At the start of the second race, with the previous damage fixed, the owner then drove into the back of an Aston Martin which had stalled on the grid several places in front of him and wrote the entire car off plus the Aston Martin. It was estimated that the MGB was doing about 70 mph by the time it hit the back of the stationary Aston. Luckily no one was killed. I think at that point he gave up racing. I suspect the Aston Martin owner did too.

Edited August 13, 2006 by PumaRacing

[PumaRacing 1]

a bit late in the topic, but as you said, you didn't know what was going on.

 

since you banned sean from phoning you and he honoured it, tried to email you

but you banned emails too (not to mention PM's), the only way to contact you

was obviously to put up a post here

 

I have a street address. It's listed on the website. Sean has used it before for mail. First class post arrives next day (usually) in this country. It's as fast a way to contact someone as anything else and we managed quite well with it before email and forums came along.

 

Clearly there was an alternative way to contact me other than just to put up a post here and also not to put up one which Kieren felt had to be removed. Not to mention whatever it was in the pm that Kieren said he thought Sean would not have said to him face to face.

 

You aren't helping this in any way. Perhaps you should stay out of it?

[petert 554]

More importantly, if it did spit out a shim, why? It will be an interesting audit trail. Worn bucket bores? Unparallel shims?