Oil Labelling Explained

[oilman 7]

Whats written on your oil bottle and what does it mean.

 

This post may seem like going back to basics but I am constantly surprised by the amount of people who do not know or understand what is written on a bottle of oil and therefore no idea of what they are buying/using.

 

To be blunt about the subject, if a bottle of oil does not contain the following basic information then DO NOT buy it look for something that does!

 

1) The purpose for which it is intended (i.e. Motor oil, Gear oil etc)

 

2) The viscosity (i.e. 10w-40, 5w-30 etc for Motor oils and 80w-90, 75w-90 etc for Gear oils)

 

3) The specifications that it meets (should contain both API and ACEA ratings)

 

4) The OEM Approvals that it carries and the codes (i.e. MB229.3, VW503.00, BMW LL01 etc)

 

Ignore the marketing blurb on the label it is in many cases meaningless and I will explain later what statements you should treat this with some scepticism

 

So, what does the above information mean and why is it important?

 

THE BASICS

 

All oils are intended for an application and in general are not interchangeable. You would not for example put an Automatic Transmission Oil or a Gear Oil in your engine! It is important to know what the oils intended purpose is.

 

VISCOSITY

 

Most oils on the shelves today are Multigrades, which simply means that the oil falls into 2 viscosity grades (i.e. 10w-40 etc)

 

Multigrades were first developed some 50 years ago to avoid the old routine of using a thinner oil in winter and a thicker oil in summer.

 

In a 10w-40 for example the 10w bit (W = winter, not weight or watt or anything else for that matter) simply means that the oil must have a certain maximum viscosity/flow at low temperature. The lower the W number the better the oils cold temperature/cold start performance.

 

The 40 in a 10w-40 simply means that the oil must fall within certain viscosity limits at 100 degC. This is a fixed limit and all oils that end in 40 must achieve these limits. Once again the lower the number the thinner the oil, a 30 oil is thinner than a 40 oil at 100 degC etc. Your handbook will specify whether a 30, 40 or 50 etc is required.

 

SPECIFICATIONS

 

Specifications are important as these indicate the performance of the oil and whether they have met or passed the latest tests or whether the formulation is effectively obsolete or out of date.

There are two specifications that you should look for on any oil bottle and these are API (American Petroleum Institute) and ACEA (Association des Constructeurs Europeens dAutomobiles) all good oils should contain both of these and an understanding of what they mean is important.

 

API

 

This is the more basic as it is split (for passenger cars) into two catagories. S = Petrol and C = Diesel, most oils carry both petrol (S) and diesel © specifications.

 

The following table shows how up to date the specifications the oil are:

 

PETROL

 

SG - Introduced 1989 has much more active dispersant to combat black sludge.

 

SH - Introduced 1993 has same engine tests as SG, but includes phosphorus limit 0.12%, together with control of foam, volatility and shear stability.

 

SJ - Introduced 1996 has the same engine tests as SG/SH, but phosphorus limit 0.10% together with variation on volatility limits

 

SL - Introduced 2001, all new engine tests reflective of modern engine designs meeting current emissions standards

 

SM - Introduced November 2004, improved oxidation resistance, deposit protection and wear protection, also better low temperature performance over the life of the oil compared to previous categories.

 

Note:

 

All specifications prior to SL are now obsolete and although suitable for some older vehicles are more than 10 years old and do not provide the same level of performance or protection as the more up to date SL and SM specifications.

 

DIESEL

 

CD - Introduced 1955, international standard for turbo diesel engine oils for many years, uses single cylinder test engine only

 

CE - Introduced 1984, improved control of oil consumption, oil thickening, piston deposits and wear, uses additional multi cylinder test engines

 

CF4 - Introduced 1990, further improvements in control of oil consumption and piston deposits, uses low emission test engine

 

CF - Introduced 1994, modernised version of CD, reverts to single cylinder low emission test engine. Intended for certain indirect injection engines

 

CF2 - Introduced 1994, defines effective control of cylinder deposits and ring face scuffing, intended for 2 stroke diesel engines

 

CG4 - Introduced 1994, development of CF4 giving improved control of piston deposits, wear, oxidation stability and soot entrainment. Uses low sulphur diesel fuel in engine tests

 

CH4 - Introduced 1998, development of CG4, giving further improvements in control of soot related wear and piston deposits, uses more comprehensive engine test program to include low and high sulphur fuels

 

CI4 Introduced 2002, developed to meet 2004 emission standards, may be used where EGR ( exhaust gas recirculation ) systems are fitted and with fuel containing up to 0.5 % sulphur. May be used where API CD, CE, CF4, CG4 and CH4 oils are specified.

 

Note:

 

All specifications prior to CH4 are now obsolete and although suitable for some older vehicles are more than 10 years old and do not provide the same level of performance or protection as the more up to date CH4 & CI4 specifications.

 

If you want a better more up to date oil specification then look for SL, SM, CH4, CI4

 

ACEA

 

This is the European equivalent of API (US) and is more specific in what the performance of the oil actually is. A = Petrol, B = Diesel and C = Catalyst compatible or low SAPS (Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus and Sulphur).

 

Unlike API the ACEA specs are split into performance/application catagories as follows:

 

A1 Fuel economy petrol

A2 Standard performance level (now obsolete)

A3 High performance and/or extended drain

A4 Reserved for future use in certain direct injection engines

A5 Combines A1 fuel economy with A3 performance

 

B1 Fuel economy diesel

B2 Standard performance level (now obsolete)

B3 High performance and/or extended drain

B4 For direct injection car diesel engines

B5 Combines B1 fuel economy with B3/B4 performance

 

C1-04 Petrol and Light duty Diesel engines, based on A5/B5-04 low SAPS, two way catalyst compatible.

C2-04 Petrol and light duty Diesel engines, based on A5/B5-04 mid SAPS, two way catalyst compatible.

C3-04 Petrol and light duty Diesel engines, based on A5/B5-04 mid SAPS, two way catalyst compatible, Higher performance levels due to higher HTHS.

 

Note: SAPS = Sulphated Ash, Phosphorous and Sulphur.

 

Put simply, A3/B3, A5/B5 and C3 oils are the better quality, stay in grade performance oils.

 

APPROVALS

 

Many oils mention various OEMs on the bottle, the most common in the UK being VW, MB or BMW but do not be misled into thinking that you are buying a top oil because of this.

 

Oil Companies send their oils to OEMs for approval however some older specs are easily achieved and can be done so with the cheapest of mineral oils. Newer specifications are always more up to date and better quality/performance than the older ones.

 

Some of the older OEM specifications are listed here and depending on the performance level of your car are best ignored if you are looking for a quality high performance oil:

 

VW 500.00, 501.00 and 505.00

 

Later specs like 503, 504, 506 and 507 are better performing more up to date oils

 

MB 229.1

 

Later specs like 229.3 and 229.5 are better performing more up to date oils.

 

BMW LL98

 

Later specs like LL01 and LL04 are better performing more up to date oils.

 

 

FINALLY

 

Above is the most accurate guidance I can give without going into too much depth however there is one final piece of advice regarding the labelling.

 

Certain statements are made that are meaningless and just marketing blurb, here are a few to avoid!

 

Recommended for use where

May be used where the following specifications apply

Approved by..(but with no qualification)

Recommended/Approved by (some famous person, these endorsements are paid for)

Racing/Track formula (but with no supporting evidence)

 

Also be wary of statements like synthetic blend if you are looking for a fully synthetic oil as this will merely be a semi-synthetic.

 

Like everything in life, you get what you pay for and the cheaper the oil the cheaper the ingredients and lower the performance levels.

 

If you want further advice then please feel free to ask here or contact us through our website at www.opieoils.co.uk.

 

Cheers

Simon

[Guest ajsik]

I am running on Castrol Formula Racing RS 10w60, cuz it has better viscosity on higher temperates Is there any other manafacturer of 10w60 , i know selenia (Fiat) and Castrol...

[Rippthrough 98]

I am running on Castrol Formula Racing RS 10w60, cuz it has better viscosity on higher temperates Is there any other manafacturer of 10w60 , i know selenia (Fiat) and Castrol...

 

 

I wouldn't say better, depends upon what you're using it for, but I would have thought that's a bit thick even for a full on track car. Especially on a rebuilt engine.

Edited June 27, 2006 by Rippthrough

[hengti 2]

v interesting read

[smckeown 1]

I wouldn't say better, depends upon what you're using it for, but I would have thought that's a bit thick even for a full on track car. Especially on a rebuilt engine.

 

i agree, that's thrashed race car teritory oil

[205007 12]

i would think after reading that some people might drastically rethink what oil they actually buy and put in their engine!

 

great info

[Guest ajsik]

I wouldn't say better, depends upon what you're using it for, but I would have thought that's a bit thick even for a full on track car. Especially on a rebuilt engine.

 

 

we made only top of engine, polished intake and exhaust channels, camshaft, new metal gasket , bottom is still 120k km old engine, I have done some hill climbs and oil was about 120-130 °C I am not sure if 10w40 is good in full load at 130°C and if it will lost oil film or not so I use 10w60 and don't worry about it. Next month i am going to test car on circuit and i hope that it will survive 30mins full load running (i will write how high the oil temp will rise )

 

btw: do you know how much does the mocal which fit 205gti original mounting air-oil cooler cost? Now i am running on normal factory air-oil cooler and in full load is OK, but when running cold engine it takes too long than the oil temp rise ...

Edited June 28, 2006 by ajsik

[smckeown 1]

worth reading the oilman posts on here and PSOOC. I'm sure he mentions 10w-40 is only to be used upo to oil reaching 100deg C. So anything over that and your talking 50 or 60

[Guest ajsik]

worth reading the oilman posts on here and PSOOC. I'm sure he mentions 10w-40 is only to be used upo to oil reaching 100deg C. So anything over that and your talking 50 or 60

 

i understand that 40 means that the oil has to fit some limits at 100°C and must have some def. viscosity and oil with lower number like 30 has thinner film and oil with higher like 50 , 60 has thicker when they are warmed up to 100°C. So if you go over 100°C lower number like 30,40 may loose they oil film because the oil film is thinner then 50 or 60 at 100°C and as I hope it goes the same way with rising temperature and on some temp the lower numbers will finally loose its oil film when you go on full load and probably soon then the 50,60

[oilman 7]

Ok, the use of an sae 60 is perhaps not the right choice in this situation.

 

Oil temperatures are the deciding factor here and even at 130degC an sae 60 may be too thick with the potential for cavitation and foaming at high revs with oil temps lower than 130degC.

 

To give some guidence is difficult because oil qualities vary so widely and therefore so does their thermal stability however..........

 

A race 5w-40 or 10w-40 will be capable of 120degC for prolonged periods.

 

A race 10w-50 or 15w-50 will be capable of 145degC for prolonged periods.

 

The problem here is that a 10w-60 in the wrong application causes more harm than good as it is very thick from 40degC to 100degC.

 

Here is something I wrote recently although not posted here:

 

I get asked all the time "why do you advise against the use of 10w-60?".

 

Let's get one thing clear, I supply 10w-60 and recommend it where it is appropriate for the engine or the application but conversly I caution against it's misuse!

 

I have debated this many times on many car forums and I know there are some that do not agree with me however I have never had a reasonable technical explanation why 10w-60 is in fact suitable, it's certainly not mentioned in the handbooks of many modern highly tuned performance cars, with the exception of some Alfa Romeos for "spirited driving" whatever that is meant supposed mean.

 

Explaining this is diffucult so there may be questions but I'll try my best to explain it in plain English!

 

Lets look at what oil specs actually mean and particularly the higher number which is in fact the oils SAE number (the "w" number is in fact the cold crank viscosity and measured in a different way) The SAE number is measured by the oils viscosity at 100degC.

 

Your cars require according to the manufacturers specs, sae 30, 40 and in some cases sae 50.

 

To attain the relevent sae number the oil has to be at 100degC (no thinner than)

 

SAE 30 11cst approx

SAE 40 14cst approx

SAE 50 18cst approx

 

Centistokes (cst) is the measure of a fluid's resistance to flow (viscosity). It is calculated in terms of the time required for a standard quantity of fluid at a certain temperature to flow through a standard orifice. The higher the value, the more viscous the fluid.

 

As viscosity varies with temperature, the value is meaningless unless accompanied by the temperature at which it is measured. In the case of oils, viscosity is generally reported in centistokes (cst) and usually measured at 40degC and 100degC.

 

SAE 60 is in fact 24cst viscosity at 100degC!

 

This is 33% thicker than an sae 50, 70% thicker than an sae 40 and over 100% thicker than an sae 30!

 

So, what's the problem with this thickness?

 

Well, this is measured at 100degC and at lower temps (70-90degC) all oils are thicker than at 100degC so the problem is compounded to some extent.

 

The downsides of such a thick oil (when not specified) are as follows:

 

Additional friction, heat and wear.

A reduction of BHP at the wheels

Lower fuel consumption

 

The thicker the oil is the more friction and drag and the more power the engine needs to move it around the engine which inevitably translates to less at the wheels.

 

So, when do we spec a thicker oil?

 

Well, you will probably have seen us on occassions recommending a 10w-50 but only in these circumstances.

 

1. If the car is heavily modded and heat/oil temperatures are excessive.

2. If the car is used on track and heat/oil temperatures are excessive.

3. If it's required by the handbook.

 

Our criteria for this is based on oil temps as an sae 40 semi-synthetic can handle around 110degC for limited periods whereas a proper synthetic sae 40 can hande 120-130degC for prolonged periods due to its thermal stability.

 

Once you see more than say 120degC for prolonged periods an sae 50 is adviseable as it is 18cst at 100degC and still 11cst at 130degC! This is in fact the same as an sae 30 at 100degC.

 

More importantly at 90degC an sae 40 is 15cst, an sae 50 is 20cst and an sae 60 is 30cst!

 

In a worst case scenario with thick oils (when not required) is that you will experience air entrainment and cavitation inside the bearings at high RPM. Not clever stuff!

 

I know this is technical stuff but oil is a combination of science and engineering and few people know enough about it to make an informed choice. Your engine would prefer and benefit from the correct oil.

 

Cheers

Simon

[Guest ajsik]

thanks for this advice, i wasn't studying this problem so deep and complex. I use the car only as weekend car but 50% of time I only crusing around and oil temp is about 100°C and as I understand the oil is to thick at this temp that it is counterproductive to run this type of oil...

 

so what type do you advice ? 50% crusing and the rest hillclimbing, 1/4 mile run and track use

 

i was on dyno and we measured 131hp on flywheel and only 90whp , of course there were bad tyres with terrible grip cuz the car was frying it so easy on 1st,2nd gear only by pressing throttle pedal harder during drive ... but still it lost 33kW somewhere between flywheel and dyno

but it was measured with "K" light cuz of faulty lamdba, and some other sensors, now we expect about 145-150hp

 

I am not sure about real whp at stock 1.9gti XU9JAZ (122hp)...

Edited June 29, 2006 by ajsik

[Pug_101 0]

Oilman what is your opinion on "Castrol Magnatec" oil in a road car and for track use.

Is it just marketing rubbish or is it's claims valid.

Thanks

[oilman 7]

thanks for this advice, i wasn't studying this problem so deep and complex. I use the car only as weekend car but 50% of time I only crusing around and oil temp is about 100°C and as I understand the oil is to thick at this temp that it is counterproductive to run this type of oil...

 

so what type do you advice ? 50% crusing and the rest hillclimbing, 1/4 mile run and track use

 

i was on dyno and we measured 131hp on flywheel and only 90whp , of course there were bad tyres with terrible grip cuz the car was frying it so easy on 1st,2nd gear only by pressing throttle pedal harder during drive ... but still it lost 33kW somewhere between flywheel and dyno

but it was measured with "K" light cuz of faulty lamdba, and some other sensors, now we expect about 145-150hp

 

I am not sure about real whp at stock 1.9gti XU9JAZ (122hp)...

 

Hill climbing is short bursts, you need a decent race 5w-40 or 10w-50 tops.

 

Look at Silkolene Pro S, not 10w-60!

 

Cheers

Simon

 

Oilman what is your opinion on "Castrol Magnatec" oil in a road car and for track use.

Is it just marketing rubbish or is it's claims valid.

Thanks

 

I would not use it on track, it's a street oil, not designed for track use.

 

Cheers

Simon

[oilman 7]

If you missed this first time around, it's worth a read

 

Cheers

Simon

[24seven 104]

So from reading this I'd benefit from using a fully synthetic 10W-40 in my 205 1.6, because it's only going to be used on track in RPM situations, not as a road car at all, and may be used for longer periods of time at this high RPM/temperature.

[Henry 1.9GTi 36]

oilman: good read

 

I am currently using 15w40 Mineral oil, the car is used on track occasionally but mainly on roads. The oil does get very hot on track although im not sure what temps coz of pug gauges! soon to be changed. With a mocal oil cooler would it be more advisable to keep using the 15w40 with hopefully lower temps, or just use the silkolene Pro S 5w40 neway. Also are there any draw backs to the fully synthetic oil in a 16 yr oil pug engine.

 

Thanks.

Henry.

[Rippthrough 98]

oilman: good read

 

I am currently using 15w40 Mineral oil, the car is used on track occasionally but mainly on roads. The oil does get very hot on track although im not sure what temps coz of pug gauges! soon to be changed. With a mocal oil cooler would it be more advisable to keep using the 15w40 with hopefully lower temps, or just use the silkolene Pro S 5w40 neway. Also are there any draw backs to the fully synthetic oil in a 16 yr oil pug engine.

 

Thanks.

Henry.

 

I'd say you'd still be better with 5w-40 - synth resists breakdown at high temperatures more than mineral does, and the 5w40 instead of 15w40 will give better protection on a cold engine.

[nick 3]

What always baffles me is that no matter what the viscosity rating says, oil is thinner when hot than it is when cold!! (10w being thinner than 40w)

 

 

Have i got the wrong end of the stick with this one?

 

Nick

[24seven 104]

just quickly what's the argument between using semi synthetic and fully synthetic?

[oilman 7]

ALL oils thin with heat and therefore are thinner the hotter the sump temperatures.

 

Part of the problem is that the "w" number and the second number (say 40) are not related in the way that they are measured.

 

If you see an expression such as 10W-40, the oil is a multigrade.

 

This simply means that the oil falls into 2 viscosity grades, in this case 10W & 40.

 

This is made possible by the inclusion of a polymer, a component which slows down the rate of thinning as the oil warms up and slows down the rate of thickening as the oil cools down.

 

It was first developed some 50 years ago to avoid the routine of using a thinner oil in winter and a thicker oil in summer.

 

For a 10w-40 to attain the specification target a 10W ( W = winter) the oil must have a certain maximum viscosity at low temperature. The actual viscosity and the temperature vary with the viscosity grade but in all cases the lower the number, the thinner the oil, e.g. a 5W oil is thinner than a 10W oil at temperatures encountered in UK winter conditions.

 

This is important because a thinner oil will circulate faster on cold start, affording better engine protection.

 

For a 10w-40 to attain the other specification target a 40 oil must fall within certain limits at 100 degC. In this case the temperature target does not vary with the viscosity grade, if there is no "W", the measuring temperature is always 100degC. Again the lower the number the thinner the oil, a 30 oil is thinner than a 40 oil at 100 degC., which is typical of maximum bulk oil temperatures in an operating engine.

 

The engine makers are, of course, very well aware of this and specify oils according to engine design features, oil pump capacities, manufacturing tolerances, ambient temperature conditions etc. It is important to follow these guidelines, they are important and are an are stipulated for good reasons.

 

If the engine has been modified, the operating conditions may well be outside the original design envelope. The stress on the oil caused by increased maximum revs, power output and temperature may indicate that oil of a different type and viscosity grade would be beneficial.

 

Cheers

Simon

[oilman 7]

The arguments for fully against semi or mineral is a pretty simple one but the explanation is long-winded.

 

The basic benefits are as follows:

 

Extended oil drain periods

 

Better wear protection and therefore extended engine life

 

Most synthetics give better MPG

 

They flow better when cold and are more thermally stable when hot

 

Esters are surface-active meaning a thin layer of oil on the surfaces at all times

 

If you want to know the reasons why then please read on but, warning - Long Post!

 

Stable Basestocks

 

Synthetic oils are designed from pure, uniform synthetic basestocks, they contain no contaminants or unstable molecules which are prone to thermal and oxidative break down.

Because of their uniform molecular structure, synthetic lubricants operate with less internal and external friction than petroleum oils which have a non-uniform molecular structure.

The result is better heat control, and less heat means less stress to the lubricant.

 

Higher Percentage of Basestock

 

Synthetic oils contain a higher percentage of lubricant basestock than petroleum oils do.

This is because multi-viscosity oils need a great deal of pour point depressant and viscosity improvers to operate as a multigrade.

The basestocks actually do most of the lubricating. More basestocks mean a longer oil life.

 

Additives Used Up More Slowly

 

Petroleum basestocks are much more prone to oxidation than synthetic oils. Oxidation inhibitors are needed in greater quantities in petroleum oils as they are used up more quickly.

Synthetic oils do oxidize, but at a much slower rate therefore, oxidation inhibiting additives are used up more slowly.

 

Synthetic oils provide for better ring seal than petroleum oils do. This minimizes blow-by and reduces contamination by combustion by-products. As a result, corrosion inhibiting additives have less work to do and will last much longer in a synthetic oil.

 

Excellent Heat Tolerance

 

Synthetics are simply more tolerant to extreme heat than petroleum oils are. When heat builds up within an engine, petroleum oils quickly begin to burn off. They are more volatile. The lighter molecules within petroleum oils turn to gas and what's left are the large molecules that are harder to pump.

Synthetics have far more resistance as they are more thermally stable to begin with and can take higher temperatures for longer periods without losing viscosity.

 

Heat Reduction

 

One of the major factors affecting engine life is component wear and/or failure, which is often the result of high temperature operation. The uniformly smooth molecular structure of synthetic oils gives them a much lower coefficient friction (they slip more easily over one another causing less friction) than petroleum oils.

Less friction means less heat and heat is a major contributor to engine component wear and failure, synthetic oils significantly reduce these two detrimental effects.

Since each molecule in a synthetic oil is of uniform size, each is equally likely to touch a component surface at any given time, thus moving a certain amount of heat into the oil stream and away from the component. This makes synthetic oils far superior heat transfer agents than conventional petroleum oils.

 

Greater Film Strength

 

Petroleum motor oils have very low film strength in comparison to synthetics. The film strength of a lubricant refers to it's ability to maintain a film of lubricant between two objects when extreme pressure and heat are applied.

Synthetic oils will typically have a film strength of 5 to 10 times higher than petroleum oils of comparable viscosity.

Even though heavier weight oils typically have higher film strength than lighter weight oils, an sae 30 or 40 synthetic will typically have a higher film strength than an sae 50 or sae 60 petroleum oil.

 

A lighter grade synthetic can still maintain proper lubricity and reduce the chance of metal to metal contact. This means that you can use oils that provide far better fuel efficiency and cold weather protection without sacrificing engine protection under high temperature, high load conditions. Obviously, this is a big plus, because you can greatly reduce both cold temperature start-up wear and high temperature/high load engine wear using a low viscosity oil.

 

Engine Deposit Reduction

 

Petroleum oils tend to leave sludge, varnish and deposits behind after thermal and oxidative break down. They're better than they used to be, but it still occurs.

Deposit build-up leads to a significant reduction in engine performance and engine life as well as increasing the chance of costly repairs.

Synthetic oils have far superior thermal and oxidative stability and they leave engines virtually varnish, deposit and sludge-free.

 

Better Cold Temperature Fluidity

 

Synthetic oils do not contain the paraffins or other waxes which dramatically thicken petroleum oils during cold weather. As a result, they tend to flow much better during cold temperature starts and begin lubricating an engine almost immediately. This leads to significant engine wear reduction, and, therefore, longer engine life.

 

Improved Fuel Economy

 

Because of their uniform molecular structure, synthetic oils are tremendous friction reducers. Less friction leads to increased fuel economy and improved engine performance.

This means that more energy released from the combustion process can be transferred directly to the wheels due to the lower friction. Acceleration is more responsive and more powerful, using less fuel in the process.

 

In a petroleum oil, lighter molecules tend to boil off easily, leaving behind much heavier molecules which are difficult to pump. The engine loses more energy pumping these heavy molecules than if it were pumping lighter ones.

Since synthetic oils have more uniform molecules, fewer of these molecules tend to boil off and when they do, the molecules which are left are of the same size and pumpability is not affected.

 

Synthetics are better and in many ways, they are basically better by design as they are created by chemists in laboratories for a specific purpose.

 

Cheers

Simon

[pip470 61]

Hi is it not better to try and keep your engine oil at the 100 degrees by better oil cooling than to try and find an oil that can that can handle super high temperatures and also low temperatures that the engine will be subjected too.

[veloce200 3]

but what about hydrocracked synthetics that make up most cheap synthetics that are not actually synthetic at all .......! Oilman now you're really going to baffle them as I'm sure you've got a lot of info on this subject...

Edited November 28, 2006 by veloce200