Rose Jointed Wishbones

[SPGTi 2]

Just got back from a company who are now starting to make/supply rose jointed bottom arms. All the cost of these is basically in the rose joint itself and the pin that has been specially made as they were not happy with the strength of commercially available pins. Everything sits at the correct angle so it really is a bolt on swap with no modification to drop links. It has been designed with rallying in mind so no comprimises have been taken for the strength.

 

A couple of pics

 

Wishbone

 

Wishbone

 

I think they will be priced at around £420 (inc VAT) for a pair.

 

Thought might be of interest as this subject seems to come round every couple of months.

 

Steve

[Jonmurgie 2]

They look great... but at that kind of price don't expect a huge rush of orders

[SPGTi 2]

They look great... but at that kind of price don't expect a huge rush of orders

 

 

Concerning price, I have always been a bit taken aback by the price of rose jointed wishbones but like I said these are designed to last on rough gravel rally stages. I was shown a very similar balljoint that costs £50 less to buy than the RJ in the pic but after short time on some rough events was clearly not up to the job. The same thing with the pin, they do not want these to break so ended up getting some specially made.

Looking at other suppliers these seem competitive on price eg WMMS (£500 +vat) and AB motorsport (round about the same as WMMS)

 

Anyway just thought I would share my info

 

Steve

[JamieTonks 1]

what the cheapest people can get these for

[Sam 4]

Do they do cash

[SPGTi 2]

what the cheapest people can get these for

 

Seriously be careful as most of the price is in the rose joint and pin. These are the 2 items that fail.If you look on WMMS website, their replacement rosejoint and pin is £150ish +vat per side. Then you need to look at the rest of the wishbone and the bushes. So £420 all in is not a bad price.

 

Steve

[Sam 4]

I think he was thinking along the same lines as me!

[SPGTi 2]

I think he was thinking along the same lines as me!

 

I could look at asking about a group buy if there is enough interest.

 

Steve

[JamieTonks 1]

i can get them for £320. i thought that was alot lol

[SPGTi 2]

i can get them for £320. i thought that was alot lol

 

Who is supplying those ? What type of r/j is being used and what pin ?

 

cheers

Steve

[JamieTonks 1]

they are the ones i had on my 205 t16. pics are on here somewhere

[205wrc 16]

Before going into strength values, check the size of the rose joint.

 

Standard metric rose joints come in standard sizes eg. 14mm hole x m14 thread, 16mm hole x m16 thread etc.

 

As we all know, the hub pin on a 205 is 16mm, therefore some people assume its ok to use a 16mm hole x m16 thread rose joint - these are NOT strong enough.

 

The reason that WMMS or AB Motorsport charge so much is that the rose joint they use is a special size one, and only made by a very few companies - its a 16mm hole x M20 thread and has a strength value of around 70,000 tonnes.

 

You need the thickest thread available otherwise the rose joint will just snap off where the joint meets the thread - I've seen it happen - Snapped rose joint which then bent the strut, strut top, steering rack, crossmember, wheel arch, wheel and to top it off, blew the tyre as well, which then broke the arch trim and bent the wing. Repair that and it would cost you a hell of a lot more than the price of a decent rose joint.

 

The arms that I run on my car are a set of PTS arms, and were far less than £420 brand new. I recently bought a pair of new rose joints for it for £160 inc vat, the pins are about £50 for the pair.

I still have one brand new set left if anybody is interested, and are a lot cheaper than £420 !

 

Aled

[jacobs53 0]

The best rose joint to use is one that offers the maxmimum thread size, as mentioned above M20, but you can get M22 aswell for hardly no price difference. And the 16mm hole of the rose joint can be increased to 20mm, or the bigger the better!

 

The pin compensates for the larger RJ, and as long as you produce the pin from 2 different pieces it will not fail. The sleeve which will be 20mm for example and be cross drilled with a 16mm hole for adaptability with the standard hub, should be seriously hardened, by case hardening. The pin section should be hardened slightly but not hard enough to promote the material snapping, and also if the pin is slightly softer than the sleeve the pin will wear before the RJ, resulting in replacing the pin only... hence CHEAP!

 

rose joints can be brought at very low cost, the ones I was investigating were retailing at 30.00 a side and were rated up to 30,000 tonnes. And if you can get them at trade price they are very cheap!

 

lee

[SPGTi 2]

Where can these rose joints be bought from as I know the ones being used in the wishbones I have posted are nearer £100 each. Cheaper ones were tested but didn't last very long, which is maybe OK for a road car but for a competition car is no good at all. Also the comments about the pin are all well and good but no competitor wants a pin to break during competition. Anyway I think "top hats" are used to locate the pin in the rj so these wear first and are even cheaper to replace.

 

Maybe the way forward is ask for a wishbone without rj and pin and then all these cheap "high performance" rjs and pins can be used. A pair of rose jointed wishbones for around £250.

 

Oh yeah cheap tubular rjed wishbones are also available, but I have seen the state of these after 1/2 a rally.

 

Steve

[SPGTi 2]

Before going into strength values, check the size of the rose joint.

 

Standard metric rose joints come in standard sizes eg. 14mm hole x m14 thread, 16mm hole x m16 thread etc.

 

As we all know, the hub pin on a 205 is 16mm, therefore some people assume its ok to use a 16mm hole x m16 thread rose joint - these are NOT strong enough.

 

The reason that WMMS or AB Motorsport charge so much is that the rose joint they use is a special size one, and only made by a very few companies - its a 16mm hole x M20 thread and has a strength value of around 70,000 tonnes.

 

You need the thickest thread available otherwise the rose joint will just snap off where the joint meets the thread - I've seen it happen - Snapped rose joint which then bent the strut, strut top, steering rack, crossmember, wheel arch, wheel and to top it off, blew the tyre as well, which then broke the arch trim and bent the wing. Repair that and it would cost you a hell of a lot more than the price of a decent rose joint.

 

The arms that I run on my car are a set of PTS arms, and were far less than £420 brand new. I recently bought a pair of new rose joints for it for £160 inc vat, the pins are about £50 for the pair.

I still have one brand new set left if anybody is interested, and are a lot cheaper than £420 !

 

Aled

 

I am not here to defend these wishbones or the price but where do you get your info from ???? Std motorsport rjs are not 16mm hole with M16 thread etc. A 16mm hole has an M20 thread, a 20mm hole has a M24 thread. The M20 (max static radial load 77470 N)costs around £80each but the larger far stronger rj (MSL 110810 N) costs £100 each (easily verifed on Autosport bearings website). The pins being used have been specially made as they could not find one off the shelf that was strong enough.

Where are you getting genuine PTS ones from as Special Tuning don't stock them anymore and when they did they were nearer £500 a pair. The PTS grp N ones are over £200 + vat.

 

You then contradict yourself by saying how important it is to have strong rose joints and that AB and WMMS are expensive because the quality/strength is top notch BUT you bought some that were a lot cheaper and presumably weaker.

 

At the end of the day you pays your money and you takes your choice. The wishbones that I have bought to peoples attention are an equivalent to the WMMS and AB products with nearly £100 saving.

 

 

Steve

[TT205 42]

Hi Steve

 

I'd been waiting for this to come out, I think I must have got the wrong end of the stick though as I thought the one's you were having fabricated would be rosejointed at both ends. Certainly I personally was wanting castor adjustment too without arb mounting point modification

 

Cheers

Dave

[SPGTi 2]

Hi Steve

 

I'd been waiting for this to come out, I think I must have got the wrong end of the stick though as I thought the one's you were having fabricated would be rosejointed at both ends. Certainly I personally was wanting castor adjustment too without arb mounting point modification

 

Cheers

Dave

 

Dave,

 

I am not having them fabricated. It is a motorsport company that I know pretty well. If you want rose joints at both ends I am sure that that could be done as well (I presume you mean rose joints instead of rubber bushes as well). If that is of interest and you want to speak directly to the fabricator then drop me a PM and I will send you his contact details.

 

steve

[jacobs53 0]

to be honest if your using the adjustable rose joints for competition use thats fine, but if your just doing track driving why would use the rose joint? There just no point, i understand that RJ offer less compliance etc... but surely a very well designed tubular wishbone with a threaded insert to match a common off the shelf ball joint is deifintly the cheapest and best (in my own opinion) way to go.

 

The supplier who I am dealing with is trident racing supplies, The rose joint I am getting sent over is a TSMX16T which is a heavy duty bitch! the bore of the RJ is 25.5mm and the threaded size is 25.5mm, they cost 37.00 each... With regards to the pin shearing that will not happen, if you harden something it causes it to have a higher tensile strength but also causes the material to become brittle after the tensile strength is passed. By case hardning the pin allows the outside of the material to be strong and the inside core to be slightly flexible, which is the ideal component for the RJ wishbone.

 

Im not trying to cause an arguement, but this is what I have learnt and belief to be true.

 

lee

[Craigb 2]

With regards to the pin shearing that will not happen, if you harden something it causes it to have a higher tensile strength but also causes the material to become brittle after the tensile strength is passed. By case hardning the pin allows the outside of the material to be strong and the inside core to be slightly flexible, which is the ideal component for the RJ wishbone.

 

Technically most of your comments are correct , apart from the "the pin will not snap bit" . theory is fine , but in the real world ,they do snap .Which is why the pins that are supplied with these wishbones are so expensive , because of teh material used , not just a hardening process

 

What you really need is something that will take the massive shock loadings that gravel cars experience. for the track , its a different matter .

 

Try running the pins you describe on a welsh or debyshire white , They will not last long .....

[SPGTi 2]

Im not trying to cause an arguement, but this is what I have learnt and belief to be true.

 

lee

 

I know your not trying to cause an argument and that you have done a lot of research into this area. The product I have been talking about is designed for gravel stage rallying. It is made using products that have been proven on the stages. Pins do snap and that is why they have had to have them custom made. I will pass on the info about Trident racing but I know for a fact that "trade" the rose joint being used is closer to the £100 mark.

Another company already supplies tubular rj wishbones and I have seen the state of one after 1/2 a rally. Compbrake also supply a pair of cheap rjed wishbones which look exactly like the old TAS ones for £235 a pair. The only car I have seen this type fitted to is Jamie Tonks old T16 where an adapter had to be made to fit the droplinks to the antiroll bar. But when GRP N PTS items are nearly this much it does make you wonder on the durability.

 

Anyway people now have another option if they are looking for these.

 

Steve

[jackherer 543]

Its clear that different people have very different requirements from a wishbone!

 

At one end of the scale there are people with road going 205s that may do an occassional trackday and are getting bored of having to change an entire wishbone when a ball joint fails or the rubber splits. these people are looking for an easy and cheap to replace balljoint, and that is pretty much it. Camber adjustability and extra pin strength are all just an added bonus to these people as standard wishbones suit them fine except for the ball joint replacement issue.

 

at the other end of the scale are people who deliberately drive their cars at rocks all day long, these people need £500 wishbones with titanium pins etc.......

[205wrc 16]

You then contradict yourself by saying how important it is to have strong rose joints and that AB and WMMS are expensive because the quality/strength is top notch BUT you bought some that were a lot cheaper and presumably weaker.

 

Cheaper - yes - Weaker - no

By cutting out the middle man and buying direct from the manufacturer you save a lot of money. Does'nt take a genius to work that one out. The rose joints I bought are exactly the same as supplied by WMMS and AB - same size, same colour, same plastic bag, even the same part number but miles cheaper.

Do a search on the internet and see how many companies make or stock the Rose Joint that has the part No. RBJ79MG - not a lot. If you do find them then you will have found yourself the rose joint that PTS used, and if they were good enough for Colin McRae, Richard Burns, Jonny Milner etc they're good enough for me.

[Sam 4]

205wrc, how cheap can you get your wishbones for? PM Me

[205wrc 16]

Sam - you have a pm

[base-1 17]

PM me too please!

 

I have a set of PTS RJ arms but I had to get new pins made. They aren't fitted on the car yet, but I am starting to wonder if they are up to the job, the machine shop said the original pins were soft as s*ite and made copies from harder material. Bit worried about bolting them to a car now though....