Anyone Used H & H Ignition Solutions?

[macaroni 17 1 Cars]

I fancy getting my dizzy recurved and the vacuum advance removed. H & H ignition systems will do this for £35 in Vat and carriage, which seems pretty good.

 

Has anyone else had this done and if so, was it worth it?

 

Cheers,

 

Antony

[boombang 2]

Pete F has and its been recommended to me by a few specialists (couple of tuing companies and a very good rolling road operator).

[stu_woac 1]

I have too there very good mate mine was £85 for a full recon and vac advance removed helps alot with twin 40s

[macaroni 17 1 Cars]

Cool, what benefits did you see?

 

I don't have twin 40s, just a big downdraught.

Edited May 15, 2006 by macaroni

[stu_woac 1]

mine was done during my engine build so cant tell you of any differences

 

if I had the vacumm on it it wouldnt be as good as the webers done create that good of a vacumm specailly when on full throttle

[macaroni 17 1 Cars]

Well, I sent my dizzy off to them for this work, so I will report my findings when it comes back.

[205turbo 32 2 Cars]

mates got one on his 2.1 pinto mk1 and it was a vast improvement

[trogboy 17]

Let me get this straight - this is to give extra advance at higher engine speeds without the vacuum advance function right?

 

If it sees such a large benefit what is the point of using vacuum advance then? Why didn't peugeot design their distributors with steeper advance curves in the first place?

[bren_1.3 1]

a modified TU and carbs on a mechanical distributor is always going to be a dog's breakfast. you want mappable ignition really. but thats by-the-by.

 

surely its just like mapping an engine's injection system? are they recurved specifically to a particular engine or what?

 

mates got one on his 2.1 pinto mk1 and it was a vast improvement

 

id suspect most ford pinto boys have this modification done, the rally boys always seem to be running huge amounts of advance.

[macaroni 17 1 Cars]

I think part of the problem is that big carbs on small engines don't produce much vacuum so you don't get the advance you need.

 

They want to know the full spec of your engine and produce an advance curve to suit, apparently.

 

It is like mapping an ecu, I guess. I have increased the fuelling/air by fitting a bigger carb and now the ignition needs changing too.

 

I should get mine back this week, so I will update with the results.

[trogboy 17]

I see why that would be a benefit then.

 

Bren - I take it you are opting for full mapable ignition on your new build?

[christopher 5 1 Cars]

You can mechanically change the ignition curve of course using this method. (this is what was done in teh old days) But mappable on the fly would prbably be the best option. Since you can change it again later

[macaroni 17 1 Cars]

True, but it only costs £35 for H & H to recurve a good dizzy, how much would remap cost? £400?

 

I am not disputing the worth of fully mappable ignition, obviously, but I can't justify such expense for my car!

A crappy old Ducelier dizzy will have to do for me.

[boombang 2]

What you may have to watch out for with a re-curved dizzy is that due to relative inflexiblity in tuning dizzies, if the car is set up for absolute peak power there runs a chance of the midrange pinking at heavy loads.

 

Depends how much advance you give for top end compared to the exact curve but its worth a rolling road session to get the carbs spot on and the dizzy positioning.

 

I know of someone who ran an H+H altered dizzy from a previous spec engine of his. When it was being setup he had the choice of 175bhp at 7k or 185bhp at 7kish revs but with the 185bhp came some pinking under heavy load at 3.5k (ish).

 

Pretty sure it will be fine but its worth testing properly!

 

Did you go for a rev limit? Apparently they can set and accurate reliable limit with the dizzy too!

[macaroni 17 1 Cars]

Interesting...

 

I was never asked about a rev limit or absolute power. I tend to stick to 7K as a max rpm anyway.

I also have a vernier cam pulley on, so when it is all put together I definitely need a good RR session to set it all up properly.

 

Therein lies a problem itself, where to get a good RR session that can set up carbs, cams and a dizzy? I have had so many disappointing RR sessions in the past I am sick of chucking money at them!

[boombang 2]

I think there is a place called Racepower motorsport near to Bluewater.

 

Been there a few times and they seemed ok but from what I've heard they are very good - just not sure how good with carbs?

 

Other option is to call Matt @ QEP as he used someone in Kent to map his car. Again though wouldn't like to comment on how well they set up carbs.

 

EDIT: also DEFINATELY worth reading up before you go to a rolling road. Not sure what you know about tuning/timing/setup but no matter what you know "Four-stroke Performance Tuning" by A. Graham Bell is a fantastic book which everyone should own, read, and re-read once a year at least. This and possibly a read of the Speedpro DCOE and DHLA book should help you to understand a lot about what the RR tuner is trying to do and may help you get a good starting point. If you can set it up close to how you think it should be it can save a lot of time, althouhg I'd have said all good RR tuners will ignore what you've done first of all and try a few things just to get a feel of your setup for themselves.

Edited June 15, 2006 by boombang

[macaroni 17 1 Cars]

Yeah been to Racepower before, he is pretty good, might give him a ring.

I know Matt too, I never thought of asking him.

 

Cheers cock!

[bren_1.3 1]

Bren - I take it you are opting for full mapable ignition on your new build?

 

it was a thought i had, altough i havent looked into it properly. i know for certain theres some good results to be had for engines on carbs using mappable ignition. a recurved distributor is never going to be perfect, which isnt to say that its a bad idea, infact if my engine was on a budget then this would be something i'd be looking into very closely. it is a proven modification and i think im just being picky when i say its a dog's breakfast running a mechanical distributor on a carbed and modified engine.

 

hows that engine build of yours coming along now trogboy?

 

What you may have to watch out for with a re-curved dizzy is that due to relative inflexiblity in tuning dizzies, if the car is set up for absolute peak power there runs a chance of the midrange pinking at heavy loads.

 

ahhh so a recurved distributor cannot be tailored specifically for an engine to suit its power band / needs?

[trogboy 17]

What you may have to watch out for with a re-curved dizzy is that due to relative inflexiblity in tuning dizzies, if the car is set up for absolute peak power there runs a chance of the midrange pinking at heavy loads.

 

Is this where a vacuum controlled dizzy has it's benefits? It seems reasonable that vacuum may be related to engine load as well as absolute RPM.

 

Bren - My engine build is going very slowly as my wife refuses to let me spend anything else until I have finished the garden and the dining room! How tragic is that? However I did pick up a brand newish and unused TU3S engine that had been ordered incorrectly by a peugeot garage and then sold on as defunct stock for £100 at the weekend so I can't moan too much. I was thinking of dropping TU24 pistons into the bottom end to give a bit more compression so if you've got any lying around that you don't want... .

[macaroni 17 1 Cars]

Thanks for the update Boombang.

My carb setup is pretty close, I think, but I now need cam setting up too.

Race Power Motorsport have moved to Sevenoaks, which happily is near me, quite reasonably priced too at £80/hour an could fit me in next week.

Having said that, I called QEP and they use a firm called Track and Road in Rainham, Essex. I called them and the guy there, Steve, was incredibly knowledgeable and started mulling over my spec there and then, asking what lift the cam had etc and recommending jets for the carb. He said it could be all set up for £160, but wasn't available until 12th July!

 

So, I have a dilemma, a) cheaper and nearer, but not very busy and wasn't really interested in the car spec, or further, dearer and a months wait, but seemed very knowledgeable and confident of a good result?

 

Back on topic, the impression I got from H & H is that a dizzy can be tailored for a specific engines needs and a different curve can be set for outright power or torque. I guess it can be set to account for different fuels used to. They just didn't ask me!

I don't think the vacuum will help on big webers as there is very little vacuum produced from them and, to be honest, with the cam I have, there isn't much mid-range anyway, so that is less of an issue.

[boombang 2]

ahhh so a recurved distributor cannot be tailored specifically for an engine to suit its power band / needs?

 

Its highly unlikely that the ideal curve for WOT resembles 5% throttle. On the type of car these are targetted at (the low to medium budget carb users - which they are more than capable for) its usually setup for WOT at high RPM so could cause issues elsewhere in the rev range and at different RPM.

 

I suppose they could build one with less advance for the midrange but this may cause more powerloss low down?

 

The other thing to bear in mind is that the recurved dizzy my mate used was setup for a differently tuned engine and although worked fine on his new engine it did cause some pinking at medium RPM with WOT (too much advance).

 

To what degree they can tune it is a question that needs to be put to H&H but I guess the length of arms + weight of the weights can be varied a lot, just not sure how "curvey" a curve you can get with two bits of metal on bars?

[MartinM 0]

For about £125-£150, you could fit a megajolt to give fully mappable 3-D (advance vs rpm vs manifold pressure in a 10x10 matrix) ignition, which is what you really need

 

That's the 'proper job'

 

I have all the parts you need plus can assist (remotely) with pre-installation queries, the actual installation and the initial mapping before you go on a RR - or even DIY by driving up and down the road....

 

Then you can fiddle with it as much as you want.

 

Mechanical distributors are just such a huge compromise that I'd get away from one asap

[macaroni 17 1 Cars]

That sounds very good.

I will try with my dizzy first, as I have sent it off for recurving.

 

If that is unsatisfactory I may very well go down that route. Do you sell them routinely or just have a one-off to sell?

[bren_1.3 1]

For about £125-£150, you could fit a megajolt to give fully mappable 3-D (advance vs rpm vs manifold pressure in a 10x10 matrix) ignition, which is what you really need

 

That's the 'proper job'

 

I have all the parts you need plus can assist (remotely) with pre-installation queries, the actual installation and the initial mapping before you go on a RR - or even DIY by driving up and down the road....

 

it is the proper job but its building the thing! and ive no idea when it comes to building e.c.u's which puts me off, although it shouldnt do at that price.

 

like macaroni says if you sell these routinely then id take one off your hands in less than a month.

 

Bren - My engine build is going very slowly as my wife refuses to let me spend anything else until I have finished the garden and the dining room! How tragic is that? However I did pick up a brand newish and unused TU3S engine that had been ordered incorrectly by a peugeot garage and then sold on as defunct stock for £100 at the weekend so I can't moan too much. I was thinking of dropping TU24 pistons into the bottom end to give a bit more compression so if you've got any lying around that you don't want... .

 

it looks like where going down the same route then! ive just stuck TU24 pistons in my TU3S bottom end this weekend, along with new big end bearing shells. ive just bought the last remaining stock of TU24 valve stem seals, (8) they wont be available for another month according to my local dealer. cost a pretty penny aswell £2.89+v.a.t each!

[MartinM 0]

Do you sell them routinely or just have a one-off to sell?

 

Routinely - have done around half a dozen so far. Everyone seems more than happy with them.

 

PM me for further info....(and anyone else who's interested!)