The Ultimate Tu Package

[Batfink 201]

My younger brother has joined the 205 fold and now owns a 205 rallye.

He wants a 106 gti engine on tb's

 

But apparently you might as well go for an mi16 due to the weight of the iron block!

 

So dilema time

Can you make a fast tu engined 205 without needing custom made driveshafts, engine mounts etc

 

Will a 106 Rallye engine have the same fitting problems as the gti

What can be done to the 1.4 xs engine and what realistic power figures can be got from this

 

We want to keep the essence of the Rallye as its lightweight and dicks on most gti's with its custom suspension

it just needs some steriods to pass them on the straights!

 

Certainly Sandy, Damian and Sam have tried a lot of combinations and the results from Pumaracings tu on throttlebodies is very interesting....

 

This is a car not destined for the road but just trackdays

[deejay391 0]

im looking onto a gti engined 205 atm, will keep an eye on this and let you know any details i get

[Sandy 189]

I'd reccomend a similar spec to Sam (1.6 8v with headwork cam and decently designed TB's ). The 16v is overrated IMO. Or if handling is a priority over ultimate power, 1.4 8v with similar mods. The 23kg weight saving is certainly felt!

[d-9 0]

Why is the 16v overrated when it makes more power, has better economy, better drivability as standard and has similar potential for tuning?

[deejay391 0]

d-9 thts wat im trying to get my head around.... everyones saying no go for the 8v but to get the power up near the 16v its going to cost ££ straight engine swap would be best base to start from i would have thought... understand about the 23kg weight saving and ive never driven a 205 with a conversion like any of these but just can't get my head around the arguement for the 8vers?? :S

[d-9 0]

I must admit to being biased here, I own a 106 with a 16v TU and regard it as one of the best cars ive owned, its not *quite* as good as my old mi16 309, but its not far off it. For me there is no debate about 8v or 16v, why spend a vast amount of money tuning the 8v when the 16v does it out of the box and leaves you room for tuning in the future?

 

If I was putting an engine in a 205, itd be a difficult descision between a 16v TU and an mi16, they apparently weigh roughly the same, the conversion would cost roughly the same, and both are very good engines. I love the mi16, but the unreliability/need for a rebuild/crappy electrics/management issues really swing the balance towards the TU engine!

[Batfink 201]

I must admit to being biased here, I own a 106 with a 16v TU and regard it as one of the best cars ive owned, its not *quite* as good as my old mi16 309, but its not far off it. For me there is no debate about 8v or 16v, why spend a vast amount of money tuning the 8v when the 16v does it out of the box and leaves you room for tuning in the future?

 

If I was putting an engine in a 205, itd be a difficult descision between a 16v TU and an mi16, they apparently weigh roughly the same, the conversion would cost roughly the same, and both are very good engines. I love the mi16, but the unreliability/need for a rebuild/crappy electrics/management issues really swing the balance towards the TU engine!

 

 

its a lot more work to get it into a 205 though

 

 

What block did Sam use to get a 1.6 capacity; an alloy one?

As the 106 ralllye engine has 105bhp it would make a good alternative - straight fit?

[d-9 0]

It shouldnt be any harder to fit the 16v than the 8v, apart from the exhaust manifold needing modding. Really dont see it being much more involved than fitting an mi16 once you factor in having to fix the mi16 every week for the first few months.

 

Sam used the VTR engine, the 1.6 iron block 8v, which is the same as the S2 1.6 rallye engine, except the rallye engine has a different cam and ecu map iirc. The S1 1.3 rallye engine is alloy and makes 100bhp but less torque than the 1.6. The 1.6 16v GTI engine regualry makes 140bhp with a decat and filter, 8v is clearly the way forward

[Batfink 201]

the way forward has corners so outright power does not make the faster car

[d-9 0]

Try keeping up with Jon round combe

[Alastairh 47]

Lol, agree with Dug.

 

Its not just 20 bhp over say a 1.3 rallye lump. Its the way its delivered.

 

Just like a mi comes on cam around 4k. it then hits you, and f***ing great fun.

 

Tempted to drop a 16v tu lump in a 205 one day. Or if the insurance fixs the 106, maybe i will drop one in there.

 

Alastair

[damien 22 1 Cars]

My younger brother has joined the 205 fold and now owns a 205 rallye.

He wants a 106 gti engine on tb's

 

But apparently you might as well go for an mi16 due to the weight of the iron block!

 

So dilema time

Can you make a fast tu engined 205 without needing custom made driveshafts, engine mounts etc

 

Will a 106 Rallye engine have the same fitting problems as the gti

What can be done to the 1.4 xs engine and what realistic power figures can be got from this

 

We want to keep the essence of the Rallye as its lightweight and dicks on most gti's with its custom suspension

it just needs some steriods to pass them on the straights!

 

Certainly Sandy, Damian and Sam have tried a lot of combinations and the results from Pumaracings tu on throttlebodies is very interesting....

 

This is a car not destined for the road but just trackdays

 

bit of a hard one, sticking a xu lump in a rallye could be a sod but at the same time so could putting a 106 lump.

as everyone knows its easyer putting the xu lump into a gti but guessing he has a rallye he wont want a gti so the xu is not really a option.

has he got is heart set on t/b's? i did read somewhere that you can turbo the tu3s engine which could be a easyer option than a 106gti engine.

what about just cleaning/turning the old engine up and spending loads on the brakes/suspension if its going to have heavy track use.

 

not much help am i

[Sandy 189]

Why is the 16v overrated when it makes more power, has better economy, better drivability as standard and has similar potential for tuning?

The Mi beats the Tu 16v on all counts and matches it pretty much for economy, with much more potential for tuning and a better gearbox. TU 16v's aren't getting any younger and most will need rebuilding soon, the later TU5JP4's not being as simple to install.

The TU 8v has similar economy, almost as much power, certainly not far off below 6000rpm, driveability is at least as good as the 16v, and still has potential for tuning, tuning also costs less because the valvetrain is halved and it already has solid lifters.

 

Besides all that, the only TU 16v i've really "enjoyed" was my throttle bodied one, the standard engine sounds dull, even with cams, compared to a TB'd engine. For the cost of a 16v with cams you could easily TB an 8v, better noise, better economy (than a 16v with cams), better emissions (if it's an issue).

 

Be quick/powerful is only one aspect of an engine and doesn't guarantee pleasure on its own. The TU 16v makes a good case for itself in the 106, because it's the most powerful engine that drops in, but it's heavy for what it is and has a crap gearbox. It's simply not got the same appeal to me for a 205/306/309 where ther are better engine/gearbox options.

 

I enjoyed having it in my 205, but when I changed to the 8v I realised what I'd been missing. I drove my TU 16v TB'd 205 and Sam's Carbed TU 8v 205 back to back (has anybody else been able to do that?), Sam's 8v definately sounded better and had more punch and personality. That sort of appeal is much more enduring than peak power, which you will always get used to anyway.

Edited April 21, 2006 by sandy309

[TB_205GTI 1]

The TU 8v has similar economy, almost as much power, certainly not far off below 6000rpm

 

I have a dyno printout of my old 1.6 8V (126Bhp, 150Nm) compraed to a std. 16V (13-some Bhp and 170Nm - I htink it is) and the torque curves are not the same. The 16V has more torque all over the scale.

 

The 8V sounds horribly, clickety-clickety-clikety-rattle-rattle, you need to adjust the rockers every once in a while and you can not alter the cam timing between exhuats and inlet.

 

I've had both 8V and 16V and the 16V is a way more slick engine, it doesn't sound the same as a 8V on a 1.3 inlet, but I really like the subtle sound it makes, not that chav ROAR - just a silent wroom and off you are

 

Comparing the MI and the TU5J4 is rather hard, the MI has the advantage of the 300ccm extra, but it still has a crappy engine management and no really grunt below 4K. If the car is a TU engined one, I would definately go for the TU5J4 - perhaps if you can source a 1860ccm, but it on TB's and you're flying.

[christopher 5 1 Cars]

I enjoyed having it in my 205, but when I changed to the 8v I realised what I'd been missing. I drove my TU 16v TB'd 205 and Sam's Carbed TU 8v 205 back to back (has anybody else been able to do that?), Sam's 8v definately sounded better and had more punch and personality.

 

I think Sandy probably is the best to comment since he has basically driven both. I have only been driven in a lightly modded 106 GTi (with 140bhp ish) which I did not really want me to rush out and but one or stick teh engine in the rallye. Just felt a bit flat really

 

Lol, agree with Dug.

 

Its not just 20 bhp over say a 1.3 rallye lump. Its the way its delivered.

 

Just like a mi comes on cam around 4k. it then hits you, and f***ing great fun.

 

Ok I am biased. But A standard 1.3 Rallye engine revs so nice and pulls all the way to the redline and peak power (of 103 bhp) is reached at 6800rpm.

 

My lightly tuned rally explodes at 3000rpm and very hard all the way up to limiter (7100rpm). You can even drop it a gear doing 4500 rpm and get useful extra power before you change back up..

 

 

My vote if for a setup like mine. Its simply the most fun in a 205 I have had so far. Or like sams maybe...

 

But the ultimate TU could be with a block like Peter has (1860cc) with a 8V Rallye or TU24 head on 45's/TB's. But ist too expensive for me

 

Not sure how such a long throw stroke will drive though...

 

 

But the ultimate TU could be with a block like Peter has (1860cc) with a 8V Rallye or TU24 head on 45's/TB's. But ist too expensive for me

 

Ha Ha thats peter above...

 

The 8V sounds horribly, clickety-clickety-clikety-rattle-rattle, you need to adjust the rockers every once in a while and you can not alter the cam timing between exhuats and inlet.

 

They are really not that bad (or else peugeot would not have kept this setup for so many years)

 

The reason this is more pronounced on tuned engine is the performance cam...

Edited April 21, 2006 by christopher

[Batfink 201]

Try keeping up with Jon round combe

 

i'd have a go with the current engine

Last time was easily on the rear bumper of GlenF off psooc in his trackday gti - thats meant to have around 150bhp and has a nice rollcage too to stiffen up the chassis

Jon uses crap tires so the Rallye will easily outcorner him and carry much more speed onto the straights

Theres still plenty more to come corner wise as the front end has only had coilovers fitted.

 

Damien - you pretty much nailed the previous development of the car Its had about about £2.5 spent on suspension and tyres It runs a 309 gti rear beam converted to run turreted coilovers, with coilovers on the front and cut slicks it cains 205's/106's with more traditional setup. I goes exactly where you want it and is ultrastable on the limit.

Its so good with weight transfer we run standard brakes lol

 

Turbo option is a consideration though usually to do right it costs a lot! As a trackday car Tb's are good because the car will be ultrareliable. If I fit an xu engine it will need the suspension altering to try and counter the weight so really it needs to stay around the same weight

 

Am thinking of a 106 rallye engine as this is more tuned than the xs, is newer and just as light,

With some cams and tb's you are looking at maybe 125bhp which is 35 up on the current engine

[TB_205GTI 1]

They are really not that bad (or else peugeot would not have kept this setup for so many years)

 

Well they changed to roller rockers, which are more silent and generally produce more torque. But the future lies in 16V.

[d-9 0]

I think Sandy probably is the best to comment since he has basically driven both.

 

Maybe not as qualifed as sandy, but ive had passenger rides in an othewise standard 16v XSI and a very modified TB'd 8v, back to back. Harsh as it is to say, the only good thing i could think to say about the 8v was "it sounds realy good".

 

 

Ok I am biased. But A standard 1.3 Rallye engine revs so nice and pulls all the way to the redline and peak power (of 103 bhp) is reached at 6800rpm.

My lightly tuned rally explodes at 3000rpm and very hard all the way up to limiter (7100rpm). You can even drop it a gear doing 4500 rpm and get useful extra power before you change back up..

 

This is what doesnt make sense, coz thats pretty much exactly the same characteristics as a 16v, except the 16v makes more torque and power! Everyone whos driven mine has been amazed with how revy it is, one of my mates was amazed it would rev to double what he normally took his car too and with one driver i had to keep smaking their hand from the gearstick as they tried to change at 5500

Edited April 21, 2006 by d-9

[Sandy 189]

Be fair Doug, being a passenger and driving is not the same thing, plus the 8v you're refering to is running low compression and a standard exhaust manifold and isn't properly mapped yet. Takes atterspug for example, he drives one the best 106 gti i've come across, healthy engine, handles nicely (in 106 terms) and he holds that 8v 205 up as a far better car to drive, RichE loved it so much he sold his 16v 106 to buy it, am I the only one? Try Sam's 205.. I could go on.

 

I don't expect people to agree with me, but the sum total of my experience in 106/205/309's etc is that power alone is enduring enough, you simply get used to it. Choosing an engine for it's noise, delivery, weight and demeanor is going to give you more enjoyment for longer. I personally find the 8v fills that criteria more than the 16v, subjectively.

Edited April 21, 2006 by sandy309

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

I'd say go 16v TU power failing that the 8v TU, your less likely to get Oil surge on the TU and it's a better designed engine even thou 99% of my work is on XU engines, The 16v has a good protenal of power well over 225bhp and if you give it a few extra CC's even more but as with everything it's not cheap.

[stu_woac 1]

lets just say if your handy with your hands and have £1000 to spend

 

spend it on the the rallye engine as a few people will tell you that went to combe over the weekend I wasnt that slow

 

and I was still getting used to the car being so stiff due to the rear beam and cage, with the back end coming round on me on heavy breaking bit scray at times and if anyone on here was in the white 205 with gold wheels behind me behind the white astra turbo crap thing sorry bud LOL

[Sam 4]

Looks like its all been covered pretty much.

 

I'm going to be running a "phase 2" engine soon. Which should get interesting results all going well.

 

Sam

[stu_woac 1]

will there be a update on your webby when its done

[Sam 4]

I'll probably do a new design before I do that. We'll see though, I got sites coming out of my ears at the moment....