S16/mi16 Direct Ignition

[IvarS 0]

Does anybody know if the XU10J4 ignition operates the coils two at a time (wasted spark) or sequentially? This is what the Haynes manual says but it doesn't clarify if the modules fire two coils at a time.

 

 

I'm planning to fit the ignition system in my 205 and power it directly from MS (v 3.0 has four ignition drivers, no external module is required).

[DrSeuss 0]

its fully sequential. Though as a suggestion, coils from a 306 gti6 may prove more suitable (albeit harder to fit). As they're more durable then the s16 coils.

[IvarS 0]

So it won't work without the cam sensor? That can be used of a S16-head so won't be a problem.

[DrSeuss 0]

From what i understand, no it won't work fully sequentially without the cam sensor. This provides a reference telling the megasquirt when it is passing cyl. no1 but i'm not sure megasquirt supports 2 vr sensors.

 

The benefits of fully sequential ignition are outweighed by the simplicity of wasted spark. I'm interested in hearing how you get on.

[petert 550]

From what i understand, no it won't work fully sequentially without the cam sensor.

 

I think you mean "Direct Fire" (one coil per cyl.), rather than sequential, a term used to describe the fuel. Either way, you definitely need a "Home" or "Reference" trigger to tell the ECU when Cyl. #1 is coming up. Wasted spark is so much easier as you only need the std. Motronic crank trigger.

[M3Evo 0]

Thought Direct Fire was the term used to describe Coil on Plug?

 

Just a thought as there are other systems which have used one coil/plug mounted remotely from the cylinder head.

[petert 550]

Thought Direct Fire was the term used to describe Coil on Plug?

 

Just a thought as there are other systems which have used one coil/plug mounted remotely from the cylinder head.

 

that's correct. ie Chev LS1. They have 8 coils/ignitor packs, with a lead approx. 3" long to the plug.

[IvarS 0]

I think 1-3-4-2 can be described as a sequence even though "direct fire" probably is the correct term. I can only see advantages with using a wasted spark setup so there will be no need for a cam sensor. The only difference will be that the coils only get half the time to charge as intended, but hopefully that won't make any difference.

[DrSeuss 0]

why not use a coil pack? from a whole range of cars, a) they're reliable, a failing of the standard coils they're cheaper then 40 quid a pop for replacement s16 coils

[IvarS 0]

I'm using a Ford Escort coil pack at the moment, a complete EDIS system as a matter of fact. Since the Swedish MOT don't approve of me fitting the Mi16-engine in a 205, I would like to keep obvious signs of DIY engine management at a minimum. It has passed unnoticed twice now (well the first time the MOT-guy had a 205 himself and was impressed by the fact that it was possible so he let it go). The EDIS trigger wheel just doesn't blend in, nor does the coilpack. The plan is to fit the S16 direct fire coils and cam cover, that way the engine will look as if it were a standard unit, only never fitted to a 205. They're only supposed to check the vehicle is safe and environmentally friendly so there's a good chance it will work a third time

[M3Evo 0]

Well it's not going to be unsafe, and with mapped ignition, it's going to be more environmentally friendly than with the clockwork dizzy.

 

Win win

[petert 550]

why not use a coil pack? from a whole range of cars, a) they're reliable, a failing of the standard coils they're cheaper then 40 quid a pop for replacement s16 coils

 

or use 4 coils, hooking two up in parallel.

 

The charge time is 3 to 5ms typically, so that's plenty of time even at 8000 rpm!

[IvarS 0]

or use 4 coils, hooking two up in parallel.

 

The charge time is 3 to 5ms typically, so that's plenty of time even at 8000 rpm!

 

That is the plan, using the S16 coils and cam cover!

[petert 550]

That is the plan, using the S16 coils and cam cover!

 

As has been pointed out though, many times, they're not reliable. There are many better alternatives.

[IvarS 0]

As has been pointed out though, many times, they're not reliable. There are many better alternatives.

 

I have a 306 S16 and I've not experienced any problems with the ignition. What I like about the S16 coils is the fact they fit bolt on, I don't want a hack setup (as the one I have now). How well might the GTi6 coils fit? I know the head is completely different. I had a coilpack from a XU10J4R but that was glued shut and couldn't be used, as it was flush with the cam cover.

[IvarS 0]

I found GTi6-coils at a scrap yard, quoted price is 85 each , that's about £55 each. Need to know if they fit before I can even think about buying something that expensive.

[Mandic 0]

There's one thing I'd like to ask...

 

If one wants to run wasted spark system on std. Mi16 engine using std. ECU, what must one do? I was thinking, can one put XU10 (which has cam sensor) head on Mi16 and then uses somesort of ECU which would calculate from std. coil signal and this newly fitted cam sensor which coil to fire and when.

 

Now, in case this works...such ECU would be pretty easy to build, or even better is there any company out there which sells them

 

 

Thanks

 

Ziga

[cybernck 400 1 Cars]

S16/T16 and GTI-6/VTS coils are different!

 

iirc, the plug is different and they are physically different too.

[Mandic 0]

Well I'll be running Mi16 cover anyway so S16/T16 coils are not in option. I was thinking something like 4 individual coils mounted on strut bracen and then using leads to bring the spark to spark plugs.

 

Cheers

 

Ziga

[petert 550]

If one wants to run wasted spark system on std. Mi16 engine using std. ECU, what must one do?

 

Nothing, you can't. The std. 1.9L ECU has only one ignition output.

 

 

I was thinking, can one put XU10 (which has cam sensor) head on Mi16 and then uses somesort of ECU which would calculate from std. coil signal and this newly fitted cam sensor which coil to fire and when.

 

You can do that, but it's only necessary if you want direct fire (4 coils) and/or sequential injection. Most aftermarket ECU's can do wasted spark (two coils) just using the std. Motronic crank sensor.

 

The strut brace is a good place to put the coils, especially something like the new Chev. LS1 coils, which have an integrated internal ignitor.

[Mandic 0]

If one wants to run wasted spark system on std. Mi16 engine using std. ECU, what must one do?

Nothing, you can't. The std. 1.9L ECU has only one ignition output.

 

Well yes, ECU only gives the signal to coil when to fire, and then dizzy gives the spark to correct cylinder. Now I was thinking of intercepting that signal (signal when) and with a help of cam sensor determining to which cylinder the spark must go.

 

So we now have two signals, signal when and signal where. One can programm a chip which would look at these two signals and if they overlap then it gives signal to lets say #1 and #3, but if it only gets signal when it gives the spark to #2 and #4.

 

Or should I just buy 4 coils and make them fire at the same time and then change the plugs on a shorter period of time?.

 

Thanks

 

Ziga

[IvarS 0]

S16/T16 and GTI-6/VTS coils are different!

 

iirc, the plug is different and they are physically different too.

 

I know they're different, the question is if they are interchangeable? Can I fit the GTi6 coils in a S16 cam cover? Has anybody tried this, to avoid the failing S16 coils?

[M3Evo 0]

Or should I just buy 4 coils and make them fire at the same time and then change the plugs on a shorter period of time?.

 

Think I'm probably misunderstanding what you've said there, but I think if all four coils went off at the same time, the engine wouldn't run particularly well (if at all) as you'd be trying to ignite the mixture in one of the cylinders when the piston is aroung BDC

 

Appologies if I've grabbed the wrong end of the stick!

 

Did you get the e-mail with those drawings Ziga?

[Mandic 0]

Yes, I did, thanks...forgot to reply

 

Well You are right about that 4-coil steup. Haven't catually thought what I wrote, I just blurted it out.

 

 

Cheers

 

Ziga