TU44J2 - is it possible?

[AndreasN 0]

No idea how to identify block height from pictures. But I found specifications for various TU engines here and there; lots of it on peugeot206cc.co.uk.

 

E.g. the blocks and liners:

 

https://www.peugeot206cc.co.uk/repair-206/206/info/gb/b1cb1tk3.htm

 

And the connecting rods:

 

https://www.peugeot206cc.co.uk/repair-206/206/info/gb/b1cb1vk3.htm

 

But I couldn't find the compression heights there. Some of it I've found elsewhere, but mostly I've calculated backwards: Knowing the chamber volume of the head, the thickness of the headgasket, the block height, the stroke and the connecting rod length, and the compression ratio of the assembled engine, you can calculate what the height of the piston must be (average height, neglecting any dome or dish).

 

I then plugged in the data from the aftermarket Wössner pistons, where they give both compression height and dome volume, and luckily I got roughly the right compression ratio. So I don't think my calculations are completely wrong :)

 

 

The XSI 1.4 pistons were what I initially planned on using - although with a compression height of 41.5mm they seem a bit tall and heavy; not ideal for a high revving engine.

 

And I couldn't find them for sale anywhere. Nobody seems to be making them anymore, and there aren't many original ones in good condition left. It's possible that you could get some made, e.g. by Aprotec, but I have no idea what it would cost. Wössner has them as well, but they're not cheap. Plus they have floating wristpins, so I think you'd have to use different rods anyway.

 

If anyone is aware of a source for XSI pistons, please let me know.

[AndreasN 0]

Oh, and the postman was here with my crank and pistons. The crank looks good at first glance, but I think I know why they parted out a valuable TU24 engine:

 

 

I'm no Sherlock Holmes, but I deduce that someone didn't change their cambelt in time 

[welshpug 1,649]

there's two block heights for the TU that I know of,   you have the TU9 TU1 and TU24,    then all the others alloy and iron the same.

[Arthur 12]

16 hours ago, AndreasN said:

Oh, and the postman was here with my crank and pistons. The crank looks good at first glance, but I think I know why they parted out a valuable TU24 engine:

 

 

 

I'm no Sherlock Holmes, but I deduce that someone didn't change their cambelt in time 

I think you might be right. Mahle catoloque says normal and 106 xsi are the same pistons. Maybe you do not have to use PSA pistons though. The first turbo I build had 76mm R5 GT turbo pistons. Not easy though. Because of the fact the pins are pressed into the rod (19,5mm). But it is possible to use 20mm pinned pistons like the R5, if you have possibilities to hone. With 20 mm pins you have more options of pistons I think. What I did back then was put 2 pistons on one pin and then clammed the bigends together. Removed the pin and honed 2 rods inline from 19,45 to 19,95 mm. Worked a treat. That does make things complicated, but i think 20mm pins are far more common. 

Edited September 20 by Arthur

[AndreasN 0]

19 hours ago, welshpug said:

there's two block heights for the TU that I know of,   you have the TU9 TU1 and TU24,    then all the others alloy and iron the same.

That was what I thought. It also fits with the info from peugeot206cc.co.uk, although it only had the info on the alloy blocks. I assumed that the iron block wouldn't be far off.

 

5 hours ago, Arthur said:

I think you might be right. Mahle catoloque says normal and 106 xsi are the same pistons. Maybe you do not have to use PSA pistons though. The first turbo I build had 76mm R5 GT turbo pistons. Not easy though. Because of the fact the pins are pressed into the rod (19,5mm). But it is possible to use 20mm pinned pistons like the R5, if you have possibilities to hone. With 20 mm pins you have more options of pistons I think. What I did back then was put 2 pistons on one pin and then clammed the bigends together. Removed the pin and honed 2 rods inline from 19,45 to 19,95 mm. Worked a treat. That does make things complicated, but i think 20mm pins are far more common. 

Do you mean this one?

 

https://web.tecalliance.net/mahle-catalog/en/parts/287/039%2064%2000/detail?groups=443#@brc/articleNo:039%252064%252000

 

I'm not sure they're right about that. It's 40.5 mm tall and has a 1.1 mm dish in it, and I thought the XSI piston should be domed. I think my calculations showed an average piston height of 41.5 mm in order to get the right compression ratio - I'll double check that later.

 

Aprotec has a similar piston in their catalog. But they also have a piston with identical specifications except with a flat top, intended for the XY engine. If I decide to abandon the TU5 crank and build a 1360 engine for some reason, and if I can't find domed XSI pistons, I think I'll try those. At least I won't have to take quite so much off the cylinder head, and the piston/valve clearance should be better than with dished pistons.

 

This being my first engine rebuild I'll try to stick with parts I don't have to modify too much, just to give myself a chance.

 

Did you press in the piston pins yourself as well? I don't know if I should even attempt it. Probably safer to find a workshop where they can do it for me; surely it can't cost too much.

[205rallye_slo 0]

Discusion of tu3s head- mark must be on left side exhsust monifod-3s.

...but today after check my engines i come to conclusion that not all k2a have "tu3s" head, and looks not 85hp-just 75 (from 205xs).

Any coments from experience on this?

 

 

[AndreasN 0]

10 minutes ago, 205rallye_slo said:

Discusion of tu3s head- mark must be on left side exhsust monifod-3s.

...but today after check my engines i come to conclusion that not all k2a have "tu3s" head, and looks not 85hp-just 75 (from 205xs).

Any coments from experience on this?

 

 

Are you sure they still have their original cylinder heads? They could easily have been replaced during the last 30 years.

Edited September 20 by AndreasN

[205rallye_slo 0]

I was thinking of this... but owner of last 25(second owner) tell that he rework the valve seals, car have another owner before...

But the poin is that have 55kw(75hp) in the documents(licence plate document, or however we cal this...). I buy the car checking just k2a on the block, and solex z2 carb:(

[AndreasN 0]

Strange! I thought K2A meant TU3S as well.

[SRDT 172]

6 hours ago, AndreasN said:

Aprotec has a similar piston in their catalog. But they also have a piston with identical specifications except with a flat top, intended for the XY engine.

The X engine has the same liners and rods than the early TU so pistons can't be too far off. Even TU24 liners are "borrowed" from the 1218cc XZ engine.

You can find TU5 cranks on alloy blocks on the 104/Samba community, usually with special liners to reach 1600cc.

[Arthur 12]

Yes, I mean that catalogue. But from memory the xsi is domed. It been 20 years since that though. I have a mahle cd still. The program on that cd let’s one reverse search. 

 

XV3 seems to ave 44,5 KH

 

Edited September 21 by Arthur

[AndreasN 0]

15 hours ago, SRDT said:

The X engine has the same liners and rods than the early TU so pistons can't be too far off. Even TU24 liners are "borrowed" from the 1218cc XZ engine.

You can find TU5 cranks on alloy blocks on the 104/Samba community, usually with special liners to reach 1600cc.

So will X liners fit directly in my TU block? Good to know. I was aware that they were related, but I didn't know they were that similar. I wonder how they do the 1600cc (78.5mm?) liners, and if they'll fit a TU as well. Alloy block TU5, that would be a fun project!

 

But I imagine it requires modification to the block as well, or the liners must be very thin.

 

8 hours ago, Arthur said:

Yes, I mean that catalogue. But from memory the xsi is domed. It been 20 years since that though. I have a mahle cd still. The program on that cd let’s one reverse search. 

 

XV3 seems to ave 44,5 KH

 

I found that piston by looking up the TU3FJ2, as far as I can see it is the only piston they recommend for all versions of that engine. They also recommend it for many (most/all?) other TU3 variants, so I don't think it can be right.

[SRDT 172]

49 minutes ago, AndreasN said:

I wonder how they do the 1600cc (78.5mm?) liners, and if they'll fit a TU as well. Alloy block TU5, that would be a fun project!

 

But I imagine it requires modification to the block as well, or the liners must be very thin.

Here:

https://talbotsamba.forumpro.fr/t925-preparation-moteur-1600-cm3

[Arthur 12]

Yeah, that’s what I was thinking ones as well. But so much work for 20 kg. I was thinking to use gsrx1100 79 mm pistons and built an alu 16v with liners in a closed deck. But one could better go ew because that’s just that with better weight distribution. 

[SRDT 172]

It's done on the 104/Samba because that's the only way to have a bigger engine. Even for a Visa it's better to find a GTI/diesel shell.

[AndreasN 0]

My French isn't much good, but I tried reading the thread with translation.

It's very impressive, but it does look complicated and expensive with the custom liners and pistons. I'll stick to 75mm bore for now

 

Even so I agree that building a "hot" TU3/TU4 is more complicated than just getting a complete TU5 engine, but it's a hobby, so it doesn't need to make sense. I can always find a 1.6 block if it fails.

[SRDT 172]

If you go with cast iron but don't want something boring you could buy a 1813cc EC8 engine from China, it's a stroked version of the EC5 (TU5JP4 with VVT). You can even go up to 1.9 with forged pistons:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/394132180366.

I don't know if the 92.5mm crank can fit on a regular TU5 block, it could also be fun on a 8v.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Auto-Parts-Car-Engine-EC8-Crankshaft_1600958051702.html

[Arthur 12]

I wish You would not have told me that. Now I want an EC8 crankshaft. I think an iron block could be 81 x 92,5 if one really wanted. Indeed, it's hobby and it doesn't have to make sense. With enough skill and money I think an alu TU can even be far more then 1600 if you somehow close deck it. 

 

Maybe you want to check other brands with 45mm crank pin as well. As long as the rod+piston is the correct lengths for your 82mm stroke and the bearing fits your crank. Would you care if a Toyota 4Ga rod with and VW piston happens to fit? 

[205rallye_slo 0]

On 9/20/2024 at 11:10 PM, AndreasN said:

Strange! I thought K2A meant TU3S as well.

Strange and frustrating also for me.

In this week I ask this question on few FB 205 forums, but no replays jet - belive that this is not somethink usual...

 

Any progres with your parts colection?