Best hand brake set up

[Rallyace 3]

Using easily obtainable parts from other models or manufacturers, what's the definitive set up for a fully functional Hydraulic hand brake?

I have lengthened the standard lever and I am using a 0.625 cylinder. I currently have 1.6 drums, with standard linings and retain the cable set up, adjusted to work if the hydraulic system was to fail. I do targa rallies, which are a series of short jests, so the brakes never get overheated. 

 

I want a hand brake that will lock the back wheels consistently on dry tarmac. Is the way to go fitting discs with a bigger piston size. I realise that the standard disc set up is probably less effective than the 1.6 drums. Any suggestions? 

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

I struggled with my road rally car handbrake so came up with a different solution, you can read about it here.

 

What Have You Done To Your 205 Today? - Page 137 - General Car Chat - 205GTIDrivers.com

 

It works a treat and I've made the bits for a another 205 and 2x 306 rally cars now, the 205 I'm not sure he has used them yet, but both the 306 boys are over the moon that they can now get the car to handbrake as it should.

 

As you say the standard 1.9 rear disc setup isn't powerful enough to lock the rear wheels, this is in my opinion why the ex works group a cars used the 2 pot AP rear caliper, however these are expensive now and don't incorporate the cable needed for road rally/targa regs.

[Rallyace 3]

Thanks Tom, That seems to be exactly what I’m looking for. I love the simplicity of it. With the exception of the laser cut plate, it seems to use the majority of the 1.9 disc set up, together with the C$ caliper and pads. With the increased diameter of the pistons on the C4 caliper, did you run into problems with long travel on the brake pedal? I’m still using the standard servo and master cylinder. 

 

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

Yes you need the 1.9 rear stub axles and wheel bearing arrangement, the discs can be either 205 or 306 offset, there is then a spacer to suit to position the caliper.

 

Pedal travel is OK for me, my car uses a 22mm master cylinder though as I have 4 pot front brakes. You could try with the standard GTI master cylinder, if the travel is too much its easy enough to change the master cylinder. You will also need an adjustable rear bias valve in the rear line before the handbrake cylinder to dial down the footbrake rear braking effort to a suitable level. I've not tried with a standard compensator either 1.6 or 1.9 types. I guess what I'm really saying is that its suitable for a competition car, I've not tried on a standard car.

[Rallyace 3]

Thanks Tom, I have an AP bias adjustment valve, but can get hold of a Wilwood one if necessary. This may be better for fine adjustment. 

I'll start to gather some parts for the conversion. I was also contemplating using 266mm discs on the front, with calipers from a 306 S16, or 405. At the moment, I'd like to retain the 14" wheels. Do you have any experience of this conversion?

The car is currently used for Targa rallies, but I may want to do road rallies in the future.

[welshpug 1,627]

405 wont work on a 205 hub, you need 306/zx/xsara   or berlingo/partner/xsara picasso

[Rallyace 3]

Thanks Welshpug. I’ve sourced disc braked rear beam from a 205. I’m going to start with the handbrake. It’s clearly had ABS  fitted, but I’m assuming that it will make no difference. For the front, I’ll start by getting hold of some Girling calipers and run a decent pad, with otherwise standard calipers and discs. I’m sure that they’ll work fine on my Targa rally car.

 

For the rear, can you advise on which caliper to order. Have you found a preferred supplier?

[PhilNW 40]

I have been trying to come up with a hyraulic handbrake arrangement that works independantly of the cable hand brake. When I did some calcs to see what forces are involved  you are limited by how much effort you pull the handbrake by and how much it moves (up to max 50 degrees to horizontal) and what force it exerts on the rear brake pads. 

Dont think there is a magic solution as it is a basic hydraulc issue.

At the moment I am working on a version that increases the lever arm on the handbrake so that you dont need to develop huge arm muscles and can fit between the front 2 seats and keeps the same master cylinder and rear calipers.

 

Not quite finished yet though.

 

Does anyone have any experience of vertical handbrakes and how effective they are?

Edited May 6 by PhilNW

[Rallyace 3]

This is my set up at the moment. Extended and strengthened standard lever, to a0.625 cylinder and standard cables, on drums. The lever is converted to fly-off. 
A definite improvement. An earlier version was even longer and actually not bad, but required too many compromises with gear lever position.. my first step will be to fit standard discs and calipers from a donor axle that I’ve sourced. This will be with a vertical set up hydraulic lever. I’ll retain the standard lever for MOT. Conscious of Tom’s advice, I’ve got a screw adjustable bias valve for when/if I have to change the rear calipers. I’m not sure that the AP Valve will give me the precise adjustment to control the foot brake with the bigger piston caliper. I’ll be making the vertical set up over the next few weeks.

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

My opinion is that you are wasting your time with the standard rear caliper regardless of what you do to the handbrake lever or cylinder, but its up to you to prove that to yourself I suppose. 

[Rallyace 3]

Thanks Tom, I am listening to your advice, as this is a road that you’ve already travelled and with the same sort of rallying in mind. I’ll push on with the vertical handbrake and scrap the idea of using the standard calipers. 
I’ll rebuild the donor axle and include the C4 caliper in the build. As I’m taking this route, what would you recommend in terms of camber and toe? I see that Bridgecraft offer a service, but may be OTT  for a Targa car.

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

I get that sometimes you need to prove it to yourself, but Allan from Bridgecraft I used to navigate for in a road rally 205, he could never get the handbrake to work well with the standard calipers and he tried quite a few things. I couldn't get the drums to work either and tried different geometry on the lever and a different cylinder. With the bigger piston calipers its excellent, it just does what it should.

 

Personally I have left camber and toe as they are. There are other things more worthwhile to spend the money on the rear suspension in my view. Solid mounts, bigger torsion bars, remote reservoir dampers.

[Rallyace 3]

This is all great advice Tom. Solid mounts and bigger torsion bars will be part of the re-build I've currently got Challenge spec Bilsteins on the rear. I've also got some tarmac Bilsteins. I know the disadvantages of the Group N ish set up. I rallied in the first two years of the original Peugeot Challenge. I still remember the times after a second compression where the car used to rotate around the front wheel and try to cartwheel. Very unsettling. Which torsion bar, ARB combination would you recommend? I'm on 185lb front springs and Bilstein gravel inserts in Satchell strut bodies.

[welshpug 1,627]

20 or 21mm would match with 185lb fronts but do need an appropriate damper.

[Rallyace 3]

What would be the best ARB to match with those.

I don’t see them coming up very often. Is it just a case of grabbing them when they turn up?