1.6 Starting Issue

[Foxyn 2]

Hi all,

I’ve searched the forums but can’t find any topics are exactly the same as what I’m dealing with, so here goes…

 

Last week, I reversed the car out of garage, washed it, left it there for several hours, then got in it to start it. The dash lit up, starter was spinning, but not engaging.  I charged the battery in case it was that, but was exactly the same. I did notice the battery was warm when removing it, which is odd.
 

Then noticed while starter was spinning that the rev counter and oil gauge were jumping around. After checking for loose connections, the starter stopped spinning and gauges stopped jumping. So with the key in start position there was nothing at all (dash lights go out as normal).

 

I checked there was 12V at the starter and the solenoid and there is. When trying to start, the voltage doesn’t collapse. Concluded it must be the starter, so replaced it - same issue. Assumed it must be the botched alarm/immobiliser so removed it (something that needed doing anyway) and tidied up the wiring. Still the same.
 

There is 12V permanent to the ignition barrel and switched 12V going back out on the orange wire with the key in the start position.

 

Then when key was turned to start position, the fuel pump started running and latching, running continuously until ignition was turned off. Then it stopped doing this again.

 

I connected a jump lead from battery positive direct to the starter and nothing. Concluded that it must be the battery, despite measuring 13.4V off load, I assumed as it was over 10yrs old it might not have sufficient cranking amps. Changed it, still the same.

 

I’ve checked all earths (I cleaned them all up last year and they still look perfect). I have also replaced the brown multi-plug and solenoid feed under the inlet with super seal connectors.

 

Continuity between battery -ve and engine/gearbox/inlet etc. is 0.05 Ohms so earth seems good. I’ve checked all fuses and shunt box connections.

 

To me it feels like a loose/broken connection, but the 12V at the starter/solenoid and the fact that even when I connect direct from battery +ve to starter I still get nothing is confusing me.

So, does anybody have any ideas on where to start looking next? Could it be ignition barrel related?

 

Any advice appreciated before I put a hammer through the windscreen. Thanks. (It’s an ‘89 1.6, ph 1.5 if that helps).

[PhilNW 40]

• I connected a jump lead from battery positive direct to the starter and nothing

Eliminate starter issue first, dodgy starter or issue with earthing of starter

 

Presumably the lead went to the solenoid terminal (and not the battery connection) actvating the starter.

 

Try the starter off the car with jump leads from a  battery under no load condition and see what happens. (be careful as small chance of earthing issue through starter)

Edited April 19 by PhilNW

[Foxyn 2]

Hi Phil,

 

I replaced the starter with a new Valeo one a few days ago. So new battery and starter, surely has to be car harness/earthing issue you’d think?
 

I’m assuming the starter is earthed by virtue of the fact it’s bolted to the gearbox? I linked the jump lead from battery +ve terminal to main starter terminal. I didn’t short across to the solenoid terminal. Is that where I’m going wrong potentially?

 

Cheers, Neil.

 

 

[PhilNW 40]

Applying power to the solenoid small blade type terminal activates the solenoid which in turn supplies power from the battery to the starter. The solenoid is just a heavy duty switch.

 

If you still have the old starter try it on there first with it off the car using jump leads. There is no need the have a power supply to the large bolted connector.

 

Be careful you do not short the two leads togther. 

Edited April 20 by PhilNW

[Foxyn 2]

Thanks for the suggestions. I’ve just been out to revisit this after sleeping on it. It seems I didn’t have the jump lead properly on the high current terminal of the starter. So, having remade this link with a lead from the battery +ve to the high current terminal in the starter, the car now cranks on the key (engine won’t start as the fuel pump now isn’t running. I’ll check the tachy relay later to see what’s happening there but assume this is a separate issue to the starter not spinning?).

 

I tried 12V direct to the solenoid and it cranks instantly as you’d expect.

 

So that proves (I think), that the connection to the solenoid is ok and is switching in the high current connection to the starter.

 

Ive checked the cable between the battery and the starter and it has good continuity. So what’s the difference between that lead and the jump lead? Is there something else needed to tell the starter to spin when the key is turned?

[PhilNW 40]

Not quite clear is the starter OK using  the normal batttery lead connection or not?

 

Do you have spark at the plugs?

 

When you washed the car did you use a jet washer? (just trying to get to what might have changed during washing if anything)

[Foxyn 2]

No, without the jump lead, there was nothing from the starter at all. The car did nothing when the key was turned, not even a click, despite being able to measure 12V at the solenoid and the starter when the key was turned. But with the jump lead in parallel with the battery cable (from battery terminal to starter main connection), it turned over.

 

That was this morning, went off to a football match, just come back, reconnected the battery and it started first turn of the key???? Explain that!! It’s like the jump lead was enough to encourage it out of a French rebellion.

 

I did use a jet washer, and it did cross my mind I’d got something wet, so maybe it’s just taken a week to dry out?

 

I’ve lost a bit of confidence in it now, so would still be useful to replicate and trace the fault. It just doesn’t make any sense. But then this car rarely does. The fuel pump running continuously a few days ago also makes me worried there is something not right.

[PhilNW 40]

At least you are up and running, bit bizarre situation. 

 

Does the battery lead or terminals  get hot during/after use?

 

Just had a odd situation on a corsa, enough voltage to turn the starter over but not enough voltage to run the electrics, troublr starting, speedo erratic when running , centaral locking would not open locks etc.

Turned out that the alternator was not running at a high enough voltage (13,5v but in theory in spec) to fully charge the battery but enough to put the charging light out.

 

New uprated alternator which charges at 14,5 volts has sorted it.. 

Edited April 20 by PhilNW

[Foxyn 2]

That is a strange one on the Corsa - one that you could search for weeks and never find if you didn’t know what you were looking for.

 

Not noticed the leads getting hot, but the old battery was warm when the issue first presented itself.

 

Believe it or not, I’m an electrical engineer but car electrics just baffle me at times. Seem to defy the laws of physics!

 

I’ll keep an eye on it. might finally be able to get an MOT on it now for the first time since 2007.

[PhilNW 40]

I took my 205 voltages as a bench mark for the corsa, the 205 will charge at 14.3 ish volts with everything on, full beams rear window heater, heater blower and big spots.

 

Took me a few days to eliminate things on the corsa including the seal on the fusebox letting water in !! poor corsa design..

 

If you want a good youtube channel for car electrics , south main auto in America is the best one I have found to date https://www.youtube.com/@SouthMainAuto

 

Fingers crossed fo rthe MOT

 

 

 

[Foxyn 2]

Thanks Phil, I’ll take a look.

 

Cheers for your help.

[lagonda 41]

It could simply be a poor connection at the battery. You would still get volts reading at the starter, but it's the amps that matter, and if they don't get through, nothing will happen. Check the main battery leads to ensure the cabling is making good contact with the terminal loops/ends. Do make sure the mating surface where the starter bolts to the clutch housing is clean on both starter and housing. Regarding the tachy relay ... I've found you can often revive a dud by resoldering the connections on the relay ... "dry" solder joints aren't immediately obvious, better spotted using a magnigying glass. A ring of grey instead of shiny silver gives the game away.

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

I'd think about replacing the high current wiring from the battery to the alternator and starter. It may look OK, and even continuity test OK, but be high resistance when load is applied to it. Often they are very much past their best by now.

[Foxyn 2]

Thanks both, I cleaned the starter mating surface when I fitted the new one, battery terminals have been cleaned up and are tight.

 

Tom, I think you could be right about the main battery lead so will look to replace it in the near future. I can see bare copper where it enters the terminal clamp, so potentially the connection isn’t good there. I’m assuming when I was trying to get the jumper lead onto the started I disturbed something that ‘re-made’ a loose/high impedance connection.

 

(Oh and the tachy relay was a red herring. I’d unplugged it while fault finding and forgot to reconnect it!).

Cheers.