Realistic figures, XU10J4RS upgrades

[Richie-Van-GTi 70 2 Cars]

Ok, I am forever seeing pub figures lately for tuned 4RS engines, most around the 240-250 bhp figures, none listing what spec the engine is but some stating its still on hydraulic lifters etc.

I was under the impression getting over 200 from these lumps took quite a bit of work and money. Just curious, who has done what and got what gains?

[SweetBadger 91]

240 might be possible with hydraulic lifters, decent cams and a bigger capacity engine (bigger stroke and bore, didn’t Sarty do a 2.2 lump on bodies with similar figures?).

 

don’t think 240hp is realistic for a standard capacity Gti6 on hydraulic lifters.

 

Mine is a 2l Gti6 with forged pistons / rods, solid lifters, big cat-cams, on 45mm bodies, std exhaust manifold, and it made 212 at the hubs (est 235 fly). Revs to 8250.

[petert 550]

Yes, Sarty pulled 240hp with 2.2L and just my Stage I inlet cam. Traditionally, 2000cc at 8000rpm = approx 240hp on petrol. My 2068cc S16 engine made 148kW at the wheels at 8250 (dry sumped & 48mm ITB's). Convert that to flywheel hp however you like, but around 250+.

[welshpug 1,622]

mine is a 2.2, 92mmx87, steel rods, omega pistons, newman ph4 cams, piper springs, hydraulic tappets, limited to 7700, though makes power before that.

standard head bar 3 angle seats, standard exhaust manifold, satchell inlet with 45mm bodies, around 200 whp.

 

my previous 2.0 was newman ph2 cams, piston cutouts modified by bridgecraft engineering, satchell inlet with jenvey trumpets, standard exhaust manifold, cat, and standard exhaust, this was around the 200 mark flywheel power if I recall.

[Richie-Van-GTi 70 2 Cars]

Interesting yo hear people are getting 200+ relatively easily on a hydraulic 2.0 then. I have a nice healthy lump which i am about to pull out of its current home in a 206 toy and put it into a  205 dimma rep that i am building. 

What would be the recommended route to see over the magical 200? Which cams are the best tried and tested and 45 or 48 itbs? Injectors standard or higher flow, standard position or in the bodies etc.

[Spesh 28 1 Cars]

Mine is very similar to Welshpugs.

 

2.2 92x87 with accralite XE pistons, newmann phase 4 cams on hydralics, jenvey 48's on satchel inlet and a slightly modified standard exhaust manifold (larger collector)

 

Made 202bhp at the wheels, guess that will be around 240-250 flywheel with a super smooth curve.  Managed just over 210 chasing a peak figure but the driveability would have suffered for the bigger number

 

[welshpug 1,622]

for a 2.0 under 240 bhp a standard injector is sufficient with a fixed 3 bar regulator, none of that adjustable buggery.

 

as a 2.0 I ran mine with the satchell inlet and injector in standard location as the original fuel rail made plumbing so simple, that and the clio injectors I had in the bodies gave a misfire so at the time we decided to forgo them.

 

I was advised that 45's were enough for 240 bhp, any more and there would be a need to step up to 48 but lower down drivability would have suffered as it didn't need the air flow lower down,

[petert 550]

Mine has solid cams.

[Richie-Van-GTi 70 2 Cars]

2 hours ago, welshpug said:

for a 2.0 under 240 bhp a standard injector is sufficient with a fixed 3 bar regulator, none of that adjustable buggery.

 

as a 2.0 I ran mine with the satchell inlet and injector in standard location as the original fuel rail made plumbing so simple, that and the clio injectors I had in the bodies gave a misfire so at the time we decided to forgo them.

 

I was advised that 45's were enough for 240 bhp, any more and there would be a need to step up to 48 but lower down drivability would have suffered as it didn't need the air flow lower down,

That was my thoughts about 48's but seems everyone goes to them now, probably not understanding the importance of air flow velocity and the ability to control low down resolution. What were you making with that set up, guessing it was still cammed?

[petert 550]

There's a lot of variables obviously, but one of the key factors to drivability with 48's is maintaining sequential injection.

[SRDT 146]

The Hommell RS2 had a street legal 195hp XU10J4RS. They had no money for fancy pistons or any head work so they did it with new cams and intake / exhaust manifolds.

Comparing homologation forms the cams have very little extra lift, they probably couldn't afford any other modification on the valvetrain or head for big cams.

 

https://www.ffsa.org/_vti_bin/FFSA.Web/DownloadFile.ashx?SourceURL=https://www.ffsa.org/Lists/Docutheque/023 Berlinette Hommelle RS2.pdf

https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/default/files/car_attachment/1601044801/homologation_form_number_5576_group_n.pdf

[Gaz D 5]

45mm jenveys.satchell inlet. Cat cams 106’s. Rest is pretty much standard. 200bhp @7100 revs as I wasn’t particularly chasing figures and I was s*itting it while it was on the rollers as I’d never heard anything like it

[welshpug 1,622]

14 hours ago, Richie-Van-GTi said:

That was my thoughts about 48's but seems everyone goes to them now, probably not understanding the importance of air flow velocity and the ability to control low down resolution. What were you making with that set up, guessing it was still cammed?

yes the 2.0 was newman ph2, it made 177 on standard inlet not mapped, and cracked the 200 mark on bodies.

[SweetBadger 91]

On 2/8/2024 at 9:08 AM, SweetBadger said:

240 might be possible with hydraulic lifters, decent cams and a bigger capacity engine (bigger stroke and bore, didn’t Sarty do a 2.2 lump on bodies with similar figures?).

 

don’t think 240hp is realistic for a standard capacity Gti6 on hydraulic lifters.

 

Mine is a 2l Gti6 with forged pistons / rods, solid lifters, big cat-cams, on 45mm bodies, std exhaust manifold, and it made 212 at the hubs (est 235 fly). Revs to 8250.

I've dug out the graph from mine:

 

 

212 @ hubs at 7800 rpm. 

 

Brett advised that the standard Gti6 4-1 exhaust manifold was probably limiting power and that there was more to be had with a decent 4-2-1 race oriented exhaust manifold.

 

Also saw surprisingly little difference between running an itg panel filter and an air-box on the inlet. Slightly less mid range with the air-box, but negligible difference in peak power, and peak power was delivered higher up the rev range with the air-box.

 

Edited February 9 by SweetBadger

[Porter87 16]

Here's mine - running 211.5 bhp, started the day at around 220 bhp but heat became a problem as the day went on and lowered the figures. 

 

12.8:1 Compression ratio

Balanced bottom end

PEC Forged rods

Wossner Forged pistons

Ported head

3 angle valve seats

Back angled valves

Cat cams valve springs

Phase 2 Newman road/rally cams

Longman inlet manifold

Pug Racing 4-2-1 stainless Exhaust Manifold

Pug Racing Exhaust studs and copper nuts

Jenvey DCOE 45 throttle Bodies

330CC Bosch Injectors

Omex 600 ECU

TTV Lightened Flywheel

Custom 2.5” exhaust system

 

 

 

 

Edited February 9 by Porter87

[Spesh 28 1 Cars]

17 hours ago, Richie-Van-GTi said:

That was my thoughts about 48's but seems everyone goes to them now, probably not understanding the importance of air flow velocity and the ability to control low down resolution. What were you making with that set up, guessing it was still cammed?

I have zero issues with lower end on mine on 48's, curve is smooth as butter.

 

Can't find the details now but I'm running bosch pico's at around 400cc in the throttle bodies with the inlet injector holes block off.  Also running speeduino with problems.

[Richie-Van-GTi 70 2 Cars]

3 hours ago, Spesh said:

I have zero issues with lower end on mine on 48's, curve is smooth as butter.

 

Can't find the details now but I'm running bosch pico's at around 400cc in the throttle bodies with the inlet injector holes block off.  Also running speeduino with problems.

Assume you mean no issues with the speeduino?  I have been looking at them as a possibility. Which version do you have, is it off the standard triggers and using standard coils so stayed sequential? Who mapped it?

[Spesh 28 1 Cars]

2 hours ago, Richie-Van-GTi said:

Assume you mean no issues with the speeduino?  I have been looking at them as a possibility. Which version do you have, is it off the standard triggers and using standard coils so stayed sequential? Who mapped it?

No issues with 48's or speeduino

 

0.4.4c im running. Chap down in Salisbury does my mapping, I can dig a contact out for him if you like?

 

I am using stock crank and cam triggers running the injectors sequential and VW TFSI coil on plugs in wasted (Couldnt really see a benifit of sequential for me). Speeduino really needs smart coils and the tfsi coils are easy to get, fit well even under the stock coilpack cover.  If you wanted to stay on stock coilpacks you'd need to add a driver of some sort I think.   Temp sensors are not stock but that would be the same for any standalone really.  Injectors need to be high z for speeduino too.

 

bit more info on a thread on speedy forums here https://speeduino.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5062  but feel free to shout if you need anything else

 

Edit - if you want my tune file I've no issues sending that over either

Edited February 9 by Spesh
add info

[Richie-Van-GTi 70 2 Cars]

1 hour ago, Spesh said:

No issues with 48's or speeduino

 

0.4.4c im running. Chap down in Salisbury does my mapping, I can dig a contact out for him if you like?

 

I am using stock crank and cam triggers running the injectors sequential and VW TFSI coil on plugs in wasted (Couldnt really see a benifit of sequential for me). Speeduino really needs smart coils and the tfsi coils are easy to get, fit well even under the stock coilpack cover.  If you wanted to stay on stock coilpacks you'd need to add a driver of some sort I think.   Temp sensors are not stock but that would be the same for any standalone really.  Injectors need to be high z for speeduino too.

 

bit more info on a thread on speedy forums here https://speeduino.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5062  but feel free to shout if you need anything else

 

Edit - if you want my tune file I've no issues sending that over either

Thanks, ordered a 0.4.3 with an integrated tinyefi wideband controller, i have a spare Bosch LSU probe anyway. Would be very interested in your file, will be a while before i need it, the car is a total project I just bought and the engine is in my race car at the moment 

In have 45 ITB's  on the way along with newman ph4 cams

Edited February 9 by Richie-Van-GTi

[Spesh 28 1 Cars]

send me a message on here with you're email address and next time I'm plugged in I'll pull the file.  I will do a full list of what sensors etc I'm using so that will get you pretty much the whole way there.  Speeduino deals with some things in a strange way such as injector dead times need converting to percentages at specific voltages rather than straight numbers (I struggled with that initially) but once you've your head around it then its spot on.  The glaring ommision from speedy in all forms is knock control though, it doesnt exist.  Never caused me a problem and I run a phormula knock monitor just to keep an eye.

 

To be honest if you pay for tunerstudio it does a very good job of sorting the VE table out for you and use my ignition map with a few degrees pulled out and it will be good enough to get you to a mapping place.  The chap I used is Mark of MB Motorsport https://mbmotor-sport.co.uk/  smashing chap but not always the easiest to get hold of, email is by far the best method for him.

[SRDT 146]

They are 4 channel ignition modules and just like Peugeot on the XU10J4 you can also use a pair of 2 channel modules if you have them lying around.

As for knock control on the Speeduino is there at least a Knock mitigation strategy? Some OEM ECU are using water temp and intake air temp to estimate when knock may occur and adjust ignition timing accordingly.

[Spesh 28 1 Cars]

On 2/10/2024 at 12:05 PM, SRDT said:

They are 4 channel ignition modules and just like Peugeot on the XU10J4 you can also use a pair of 2 channel modules if you have them lying around.

 As for knock control on the Speeduino is there at least a Knock mitigation strategy? Some OEM ECU are using water temp and intake air temp to estimate when knock may occur and adjust ignition timing accordingly.

 

Yep, IAT and coolant temp retard is present as is barometric compensation (useful for me on AlphaN).  its only a direct knock sensor that is missing.