PTS 6-Speed Gearbox? (identification needed - pics inside)

[Kobayashi 35 2 Cars]

Same story as with the PTS Coilovers that came along with my recently acquired Grp. A rally car  (I know - I have yet to start a thread on it)

Among the spares that came with the car, there was a second 6-speed gearbox believed to be from PTS (Grp. A or N if that is actually possible).
It is said to be 'not as extreme' (i.e. not as short-ratio'd and not as noisy) as the currently mounted gearbox (which is supposedly straight-toothed and maxing out at 160 km/h or so in 6th).

It is said to be defective due to a broken 3rd gear.

Again, the question is: What exactly is it and how can I find out more about it? 

Reportedly, there is some magic attached to the hand-endgraved numbers, which I think in my case wants to say "PA92".
And what do the other numbers tell us, e.g. on ratio? I have to admit that I know next to nothing about gearboxes... 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Kobayashi

[Kobayashi 35 2 Cars]

I also tried to peek inside the gearbox a little, but TBH I am afraid of disassembling it further because I would probably be unable to reassemble it correctly 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Kobayashi

[petert 549]

GTi6 case with special gears. Final drive is 5.2:1 and 6th is 32x31, 0.968:1? It's definitely extreme.

 

Is there a drain hole underneath for oil cooling?

Edited July 27, 2022 by petert

[Kobayashi 35 2 Cars]

Thanks Peter. This is interesting, as the other gearbox that is currently fitted is said to be even more 'extreme' 

 

What would be a typical application for a gearing like that?

 

I will have a look on the drain hole. Not sure there is one and also not sure if it's permitted in Grp.A regulations.

[Thijs_Rallye 86 4 Cars]

This might shed some more light on this issue. Gearbox starts at (PDF) page 59. It sure has the look of the PTS box.

 

205 Gti 1900 GrA (01-88).pdf

[Kobayashi 35 2 Cars]

That's fantastic, thanks 

[SRDT 146]

The gearbox in the picture is the six speed BE1 made as a kit to transform a regular gearbox, any part circled twice is retained from the stock GTI. Compared to a 5 speed with a close ratios gearkit and shorter final drive it's only a few more parts.

When Peugeot switched to the BE3 the bellhousing became special, I think it was sold as a complete gearbox at this point and that's probably what you have here.

The design was later adapted for the road going 306 GTI6 and Peugeot Sport started using stock 306 parts as much as possible.

 

Is your other gearbox the same from the outside?

[Biggles 65]

3 hours ago, Kobayashi said:

 What would be a typical application for a gearing like that?

Would work nicely on my rally car (if I was a bit less mechanically sympathetic).  On the rev limiter in top it would give 115mph - there's only one venue I've been to where I've seen significantly more than that.

[DanteICE 72]

4 hours ago, Thijs_Rallye said:

This might shed some more light on this issue. Gearbox starts at (PDF) page 59. It sure has the look of the PTS box.

 

205 Gti 1900 GrA (01-88).pdf

This is a wonderful read (with a bit of google translate), however this makes sense:

 

But this one:

 

WTF is that about? Why all the 'joint cuivre' and 'Tuyau cuivre' pieces, translates to copper piping. But part 20 makes no sense to me?

 

Sorry for the hijack, I'm just fascinated 

[Kobayashi 35 2 Cars]

6 hours ago, SRDT said:

The gearbox in the picture is the six speed BE1 made as a kit to transform a regular gearbox, any part circled twice is retained from the stock GTI. Compared to a 5 speed with a close ratios gearkit and shorter final drive it's only a few more parts.

When Peugeot switched to the BE3 the bellhousing became special, I think it was sold as a complete gearbox at this point and that's probably what you have here.

The design was later adapted for the road going 306 GTI6 and Peugeot Sport started using stock 306 parts as much as possible.

 

Is your other gearbox the same from the outside?

Very interesting and good to know, thank you!  Too bad it's said to be defective, but maybe I can have it fixed some day. Any clue on that 'PA92'?

 

I will have a closer look at the other, currently mounted gearbox. So far I only took some photos with skidplates still in place. But I am finally picking up the car today  

 

Stay tuned...

[Kobayashi 35 2 Cars]

5 hours ago, DanteICE said:

WTF is that about? Why all the 'joint cuivre' and 'Tuyau cuivre' pieces, translates to copper piping. But part 20 makes no sense to me?

 

Sorry for the hijack, I'm just fascinated 

The double ringed parts are stock parts kept in place. So #20 must be part of the standard 1.6 brake piping. 

[petert 549]

4 hours ago, Kobayashi said:

Too bad it's said to be defective, but maybe I can have it fixed some day. A

I'm sure I could fix it. Sell it to me.

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

12 hours ago, DanteICE said:

But part 20 makes no sense to me?

 Part 20 will be the flexi fitted between the beam / radius arm & body rigid pipes.

 

g

[DanteICE 72]

4 hours ago, pug_ham said:

 Part 20 will be the flexi fitted between the beam / radius arm & body rigid pipes.

 

g

Translation states it's copper

[welshpug 1,621]

That makes sense as the last piece on a standard  1.9 was flexible  unlike the later psa cars using the same trailing arm and caliper

[SRDT 146]

14 hours ago, Kobayashi said:

Any clue on that 'PA92'?

I have no idea, you could ask the guy from PAM Sport but I don't know if he is fluent in english:

https://www.pam-sport.fr/14-boites-de-vitesse-be-synchros

[Kobayashi 35 2 Cars]

10 hours ago, SRDT said:

I have no idea, you could ask the guy from PAM Sport but I don't know if he is fluent in english:

https://www.pam-sport.fr/14-boites-de-vitesse-be-synchros

I will do that, thanks! I would not call it fluid, but I speak a little french myself.

[Kobayashi 35 2 Cars]

20 hours ago, petert said:

I'm sure I could fix it. Sell it to me.

Thanks mate, I am currently making up my mind on what to keep vs. sell and I will let you know first when it's up for sale, OK? 

[Kobayashi 35 2 Cars]

On 7/27/2022 at 10:27 PM, SRDT said:

Is your other gearbox the same from the outside?

 

I find it hard to tell TBH. Looks like a generic 6-speed box to me, apart from that second drain hole (?) underneath. No special markings, etc. visible

[SRDT 146]

It looks pretty much the same. It could have been the newer 306 style cases or the shorter dog box.

[petert 549]

That 2nd drain hole, is where the cooler connects. My BE3/6 doesn't have it.

[DanteICE 72]

Since it's got a pump, does it have positioned squirt jets inside to spray directly onto the gears?

[SRDT 146]

I can't find what's going on inside, the Saxo Trophée T4 gearbox is 4WD with a custom transfer case so maybe it's used to cool that part.

Any work on the gearbox had to be done by Citroën Sport so there is no rebuild manual or spare parts catalog.

[SRDT 146]

On 7/27/2022 at 10:27 PM, SRDT said:

When Peugeot switched to the BE3 the bellhousing became special

In fact it didn't, at least at first.

https://www.leschroniquesdegoliath.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Technique-309-GTI-16.pdf

Group A 309 GTI16 can use a stock bellhousing just like before as there is no reverse lockout on the gearbox side. It's done on the gear lever side.

 

Obviously the gearbox on the first post has one anyway. I don't know if it was some evolution by Peugeot Sport or a later addition on this particular gearbox.