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28hodge

Paint advice for DIY respray

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28hodge

Looking for some pointers and general info.

 

I have 2 ex rally cars that have been neglected, I have replaced a roof on one and the other was parked after a bump for 25 years in a barn before I bought it. It has a completely different colour front end Wings Bonnet etc.

Both are going EWT white and both have been sprayed previously prior to me buying them. I don't need to worry about paint matching as I’ll respray them fully externally.

 

I can get EWT from local paint factor but only in cellulose, I am fine with that, I have a good 3m 6800 full face mask with filters and pre filters, overalls etc. but I do not want to spray with 2pk, I have young kids and neighbours around, it’s not worth the possible problems, so I want to spray without isocyanates.

 

This is where I start to get a little stuck/lost. I ideally want to spray with an epoxy primer first but I can’t get a straight answer about a non iso containing product. 

 

I’ll flat that back and see but in gods honest truth the cars will be used as targa/road rally cars so they need to be 1 colour for regs and as long as they look ok from 10 yards that’s fine.

 

I was then going to high build prime, flat it off and then 3 coats of cellulose, the supplier says they can give me an ewt in cellulose that will dry glossy and not need a lacquer over the top? Anybody tell me what that is? Is it an acrylic paint?

 

What was the original paint finish from the factory, were they painted in 2pk from the factory, cars are 85 B and C reg originally if that makes any difference, trying to figure out if I need a bar coat over them first, that said both have been repainted more than once I would imagine as both have been rally cars since late 80’s. Prob have to spray a small section first and see if it react but be good to know what the orig paint likely was.

 

Any help and advice appreciated as I’ve never painted with a spray gun before and I also have my classic mini that would benefit from a respray so I’ve got 3 cars that I want to get done so if anybody can save me the common mistakes. However please don’t reply telling me to use 2pk as it’ll be fine and its better, I'm not happy using it in my location etc.

 

Thanks

Edited by 28hodge

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DamirGTI

Cellulose base paint will be best and safest route for DIY respray without air feed mask ... as far as i know , no "ISO" in cellulose .

 

Acrylics , some i remember contained small portions of "ISO" back in the days , nowadays not sure .. there's hardly even places here mixing up acrylic paints per paint codes , mostly all went to "base-clear" ie. cellulose base and 2k clear . 

 

2K clear however usually does contain "ISO" (hardener for the 2K clear) , maybe there's some without but unlikely/not sure .. 

But there's also 1K clear available ...

 

There's various different ticks you can do , like mix some clear with the cellulose base .. say like 10-20% of clear with the cellulose base that'll make it semi shine (but won't be able to buff it afterwards if mixing) , straight cellulose once sprayed is thin/dry and dull as a f*** but with some buffing/polishing if you're patient can make it shine just like 2K paint without the clear coat over base . 

 

For all the stuff you plan on using - get/read the MSDS tech and safety data ... if any of the products contains "ISO" it'll be written in the MSDS paperwork and by how much % .

Paint salesman should know and warn you (but that rarely or never happens from my experience) , if not , for sure at least - must provide you "product paperwork" , as if he's selling them by law he needs to have the MSDS paperwork .

 

Best to contact paint/product manufacturer and ask for an - MSDS paperwork , or ask directly for presence of "ISO" .

 

Myself , i really liked acrylic .. for the DIY respray , was the best for the shine straight from the gun and fast drying , needed just a smidgen of buffing to bring up the shine or most of the time none at all . 

 

Epoxy primer or isolator primer (though both are the same - isolators) if the OE paint is unknown or you suspect reaction ... but test first by scrubbing an area with an rag soaked with nitro cellulose paint thinner or acetone , if it melts/removes the OE paint it's either Acrylic or Cellulose , if not it's 2K .

Have somewhere reaction chart , which one can be painted over without the need for primer/isolator , just scrubbing the OE paint with scotchbrite pads to "key in" the surface and de-grease/de-wax for the paint to stick/bond ...

Certainly i've done Acrylic over (old) 2K and Cellulose too without reaction , thus the primer will be useless for both cost and excess work  . Only time i had reaction was oil based paints over Acrylic and Cellulose , and was really bad reaction .

 

Pretty sure all the early PSA cars where OE painted with 2K .. (bit) later came "clear-over-base" (cellulose+2k clear)

 

One note with regards to health hazard - "wax and grease remover" , certain brands contain really nasty stuff , same if not even more toxic than the "ISO" .. few painters told it's the most toxic chemical in the automotive respray industry ... thus , if using those , wear nitrite gloves , respirators , and trow away both the gloves (wash hands after) and wiping cloths soaked with it in the trash bag asap once you've done with the de-grease/de-wax .

Alternatively safest route , can use rubbing alcohol or glass cleaner (same stuff usually , isopropyl alcohol ) .

 

Whatever you do - stay clear from water based paints !! they're nightmare to work with for DIY'er .. need special equipment for drying/"baking" the paint etc.

 

D

Edited by DamirGTI
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28hodge

Thanks Damir.

 

Local paint shop is good and they have told me that the topcoat cellulose they can mix up wont need a 1k top coat lacquer. and can provide me a high build cellulose primer also. 

 

I have been looking around and can get non isocyanate acrylic mixed up but only to RAL or BS codes. so not sure this is ideal as i have no idea what RAL would match EWT best, and i'd rather it was the right colour - 

 

https://www.rawlinspaints.com/home/metal-paints/metal-topcoats/4407-hmg-nisocoat-2.html

 

the page has an error on it where is says it is iso hardening but the safety data sheet confirms it is non iso containing.

 

this is also the epoxy primer and hardener i am looking at which again is iso free from the data sheets to me.

https://www.rawlinspaints.com/home/metal-paints/metal-primers-and-undercoats/4453-hmg-epoxy-primer-ep2.html

https://www.rawlinspaints.com/home/accessories/4569-hmg-hardener-9070.html

 

think I will get it all epoxy primed, then high build it and flat it back and then just keep building cellulose onto it and put 3 maybe 4 coats of top on it and see what it looks like, I am not after a show car, just needs to look presentable.

 

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DamirGTI

Bit strange , as cellulose is no good for the shine without top clear coat ... as said , certainly can be done on it's own but needs paint wet sanding with very fine grt. paper and buffing/polishing and then it'll shine . Perhaps something new with the paint products ? or they'll mix the cellulose with the clear .

 

Yeah , going by RAL chart is quite a bit "hit and miss" ... especially as with a few different paint brands of the same colour usually you end up with three different shades of say RAL 3000 red !! all of them labeled RAL 3000 but clearly different once sprayed .

 

Even going by the OE paint code , various paint mixing shops will make you different one .. unlikely it'll be 100% match , cos of the mixing machine and one who does the mixing , and the state of the actual paint on the car particularly important if doing part respray/spot respray and need to blend in ... certain colours are also an real bitch to do blending .

But if doing full respray , doesn't really matter then .. if part/spot respray , best to bring an piece/sample of the bodywork like petrol cap or similar (or preferably whole car if possible , as the bigger the panel the better) , and colour match via paint cards outside on a sunny day then pick the closest one and mix up that one in small amount , test spray and see if it maybe needs touch darker or lighter shade and once found best mix up large amount for the job .

 

Depends really on the sate of the bodywork on the car you're going to work on .. as always preparation is 80% of the job . If it's full of dents , fresh glossy paint will just make it looking worse if not rectified the dents and dings on the bodywork .

Epoxy primer is handy as you can apply body filler over it , some people say no and just on bare metal (body filler) , but i had good results with both adhesion and durability with this method .. especially as i don't particularly like body filler on bare metal , sooner or later (later usually) by capillary action moisture gets in-between the bare metal and body filler and starts rusting process , if there's weld especially it always starts from/around the welds first . 

 

D

 

 

Edited by DamirGTI
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28hodge

Just spoken to them and ordered the paint up, he said its a direct to gloss cellulose, which has a different binder in it to allow it to dry glossy shiny.

 

I have used this before but hadn't realised this is what I was using till they told me just now. I have a classic mini which is a road rally car so occasionally needs a replacement section welding into it and then spot spraying, they always give me a can that isn't base and then lacquer over but is direct to gloss and the stuff I spray from the aerosol and its finish is way better than the paint which was done prior to me buying it which I know was cellulose.

 

The car has had the majority of the bodywork sorted in terms of dents etc, its this one - 

 

 

like I said its not a show car and never will but, but it does need to be one color and 90% right.

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DamirGTI

Interesting , which brand of the paint is that "glossy" cellulose ? or is it the paint shops special mixed up "homebrew" so to speak ?

 

No need to strive for optics "perfection" (it's a bit silly route if you ask me .. "done" is far better and easier for the nerves and the money invested) , anyways it's for the joy of driving it right .

Yes i've seen the roof skin replacement you did - very good job ! B)

 

D

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28hodge

from this - 

 

0j60JE0.jpg

 

To this 

 

oZiPPJ9.jpg

 

Primed

2ls84yA.jpg

 

and the 5 layers of top coat

PeeGNtg.jpg

CZEuEhO.jpg

LAhyle4.jpg

 

Happy enough, its a long way from perfect, but i was never going to spend the days prepping when it could be in a hedge at some point soon.

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DamirGTI

Nice one ! B)

 

Little bit orange peel looking at places , but that you can remove with wet sanding with 2000/3000 grt. sanding paper and buff/polish out after , and it'll be glossy and shiny .

 

D

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28hodge

Yeah, its a little textured but i think thats my error as i had the gun to far away, where i got the gun nice and close its a really good finish. If i get chance i'll put a mop and a polishing compound over it, i have however (optimistically) entered a rally in it on the 23rd Oct.

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DamirGTI

Don't worry , you did good job especially working on a DIY respray basis .

 

Orange peel you can always remove/rectify later , paint needs to settle/harden anyways for a few weeks first , then you can work on it later with wet sanding and polishing .

Most of the cars professionally resprayed are also polished/buffed after the respray .

 

Which brand of the paint was that you where using for this job ? does look glossy as it is now , unusual for straight cellulose base .

 

D

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28hodge

Its supplied by these 

 

m7RE57R.jpg

 

They supply these paints

 

J0gmxVZ.jpg

 

I am guessing that its a PMI cellulose product judging by this, but i did ask and they said it has an gloss binder in it and it has dried/is drying shiny.

 

L4wfkj8.jpg

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DanteICE

What spray gun did you use?

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28hodge
17 hours ago, DanteICE said:

What spray gun did you use?

just a cheap one off ebay - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353139044911

 

Its a Violiamart 2X HVLP Spray Gun Kit Gravity Feed Vehicle Car Paint 1.4/0.8MM Nozzle. 

 

The one in the link is more than i paid for mine, i think it was like £23 ish so have a search and you'll find it cheaper.

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28hodge

Pushed it outside into the sun yesterday to let the paint have some warmth

 

rKQ8VpG.jpg

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DanteICE

Guessing your compressor has a vapour trap?

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28hodge
16 hours ago, DanteICE said:

Guessing your compressor has a vapour trap?

Yeah i have an 10mm ID 15m airline to a oil and vapor trap on the wall then a 20m 8mmid airline to the gun with a vapor filter fitted prior to the gun regulator.

 

Its all just cheap off ebay. The one thing i learnt when doing the shell was to move the gun at a slower pace and be closer that i thought initially, on the areas where i did this the paint finish is really pretty good, The areas where i moved to fast or wasn't close enough it shows in the finish as the paint has some texture to it. It'll probably be able to be flatted back and ba made good, but as this is a competition car and could be in a hedge in a couple weeks i don't see the point/need.

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DanteICE

yeah, very true, but it's good you've learned something though. I'm in the process of spraying stuff myself, so all advice is great, thanks.

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