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Mac Crash

No fuel getting to filter

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Mac Crash

Car has been sat for a while with low fuel and won't start. Removed faulty fuel pump which had hardened encrusted orange coloured deposits around it. Assume this has been caused by fuel going off and lack of it in the tank.

I've fitted an OE used pump bought from Jim on here (very clean, thank you) and have tested it on bench with direct current from battery before fitting back into tank with plenty fresh fuel.

 

Engine still not starting or offering to. Electrical supply to pump is fine, pump can be heard priming when ignition is on. Removed fuel union at top of filter, filter is empty, no fuel getting there, any ideas where to go next?

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welshpug

check the lines on the pump are on the right way round.

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Mac Crash
Posted (edited)

yip, done that, car was running fine with previous pump before it sat around I mean, nothing has changed, even took photo just to be sure. They are braided lines and run inside car, they're nicely routed and would have to cross over each other to go on wrong.

This has got me stumped. Even swapped Tach relay over from other car (known good one)

Edited by Mac Crash

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PhilNW
3 hours ago, Mac Crash said:

hardened encrusted orange coloured deposits

Have some of these ended up in the fuel lines?

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Mac Crash

hope not Phil... checked lines today. Pump spigot (outlet) nearest beam runs to bottom of fuel filter, then out top of filter to gearbox end of fuel rail. The line at pressure regulator then runs back to tank, so I've definitely not mixed the lines up.

going to remove filter tomorrow and investigate further from there. Only other thing I can think of is I've mixed up the polarity of the pump itself but green and yellow wire went to green and yellow, the other wire was off colour, probably faded over time by fuel.

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Mac Crash

on another note, noticed the injectors are black ones instead of blue for 1.6

are these uprated for flow?

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PhilNW
22 minutes ago, Mac Crash said:

hope not Phil... checked lines today. Pump spigot (outlet) nearest beam runs to bottom of fuel filter, then out top of filter to gearbox end of fuel rail. The line at pressure regulator then runs back to tank, so I've definitely not mixed the lines up.

going to remove filter tomorrow and investigate further from there. Only other thing I can think of is I've mixed up the polarity of the pump itself but green and yellow wire went to green and yellow, the other wire was off colour, probably faded over time by fuel.

Have you checked fuel is actually leaving the pump? Connect a short length of hose direct to pump outlet into a container and try the pump?

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Thijs_Rallye
2 hours ago, Mac Crash said:

on another note, noticed the injectors are black ones instead of blue for 1.6

are these uprated for flow? 

Those flow more than the yellow 1.9 ones if my memory serves me right. These are standard on the 105 hp 1.9 DFZ engine (@2,5 bar).

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Mac Crash

checked fuel leaving pump with short piece of fuel hose into jar. No problem, pump primes itself, then when you wind engine over it's pumping steady flow of fuel.

 

Attached photos speak for themselves, 100% encrustation but seems to have been confined only to the anodised unions... the braided hoses themselves were clear although

the residual liquid that came out the feed line did not resemble petrol anymore, was more like oil. Seemingly this is common with cars that have been parked up for a while.

 

Have you seen this before to this extent? well anyway lines now cleaned and new filter ordered from Dingbro. Hopefully she'll be running again shortly.

Screenshot_1.jpg

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PhilNW
Posted (edited)

Stale fuel always a problem, never seen it that bad on fuel lines

 

Had injectors cleaned when rebuilding an engine that had been stood for a while just to be on safe side, guy who did said they were pretty bad when tested.

 

Good to hear its sorted 

 

EDIT

Hopefully deposits not elsewhere in system

Edited by PhilNW
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Mac Crash

got fresh fuel coming through from pump to entry side of rail now, engine still not firing or offering.

healthy spark at each HT lead.

If there was a problem in the return line would that stop the engine from firing? not sure where to look at next.

 

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welshpug

I'd get the injectors cleaned, or source the correct ones and have them cleaned.

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PhilNW
Posted (edited)

Have you checked the injectors are actually firing?

 

Are the plugs wet or dry after cranking?

 

 

Edited by PhilNW
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Telf

I wonder if thats the plastic around mesh around the pump breaking down? It looks like the same colour 

 

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DamirGTI

Definitely stale fuel breakdown deposits .

 

Haven't seen that before in the days of leaded petrol (used to be mostly water and rust specks/deposits) , but nowadays unleaded stuffed with ethanol when it goes "sour" and especially after sitting longer than 6 months period (the longer , the harder it solidifies) it turns into this kind of yellow crap .. craps out the tank insides with that yellow deposits , damages/jam fuel pumps , attacks/eats rubber and metal parts ... 

 

Agree with Mei , likely injectors could be jammed , and expect to see those deposits inside fuel rail too ... i'd clean up the lot , injectors , rail , press. regulator .. best to pop all of those in ultrasonic bath and give it a buzz .

 

D

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Mac Crash
On 6/2/2021 at 6:47 PM, welshpug said:

I'd get the injectors cleaned, or source the correct ones and have them cleaned.

Hello WP - glad to see you're still amongst the living ;-) yes, engine is 1.6 and fitted with black injectors, previously car ran fine. No idea why it has upgraded injectors as far as I'm aware engine is standard but don't know this for sure. So in a box of parts that I got with the car, the blue 1.6 injectors are there. Guy was fairly knowledgeable and used car for clubman type rallys. Anyway I removed the fuel hose from the rail and FP regulator and the bolts holding the rail onto the inlet manifold. Could wiggle the rail around but not remove it, thank god because my 1.9 car is stripped down and the inlet manifold is laying on the bench with the injectors still in it at the time so I decided let have a look at this first and see how it all goes together. You already know all the pindle caps came off the injectors on removal don't you? They'd be sitting in the top of the 1.6 engine right now if I'd carried on.

 

So I've connected everything back up and not sure what's changed but engine will now fire up and start but won't run or rev, it's continuously misfiring badly, wants to clear, then just cuts out. It's definitely getting spark at each plug, I've changed HT leads, king lead, coil and ignition amp all for known good ones ruling out each part one at a time but no difference. Just continue with removing inlet and injectors then would you say?

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Mac Crash
On 6/3/2021 at 6:54 PM, PhilNW said:

Have you checked the injectors are actually firing?

 

Are the plugs wet or dry after cranking?

 

 

Hi Phil,

saga continues - how to check injectors are firing? checked plugs and as far as I can tell, they're not wet. Car is misfiring now badly and won't run or idle. Plugs are dirty, not heavy though and clean up fine.

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Mac Crash
On 6/3/2021 at 10:30 PM, DamirGTI said:

Definitely stale fuel breakdown deposits .

 

Haven't seen that before in the days of leaded petrol (used to be mostly water and rust specks/deposits) , but nowadays unleaded stuffed with ethanol when it goes "sour" and especially after sitting longer than 6 months period (the longer , the harder it solidifies) it turns into this kind of yellow crap .. craps out the tank insides with that yellow deposits , damages/jam fuel pumps , attacks/eats rubber and metal parts ... 

 

Agree with Mei , likely injectors could be jammed , and expect to see those deposits inside fuel rail too ... i'd clean up the lot , injectors , rail , press. regulator .. best to pop all of those in ultrasonic bath and give it a buzz .

 

D

Hello Damir, fuel rail looks spotless inside, bare metal visible. I think the filter has done it's job as the deposits were all contained on the upstream side of the fuel system if you like, top of filter housing was clean as was the hose.

I've no issue doing all of this but just can't help feeling it's something else.

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PhilNW
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Mac Crash said:

Hi Phil,

saga continues - how to check injectors are firing? checked plugs and as far as I can tell, they're not wet. Car is misfiring now badly and won't run or idle. Plugs are dirty, not heavy though and clean up fine.

Basically the injectors get a power feed of the tachy relay and fire by earthing through the ECU.

A way  I have checked in the past is to check the voltage (and any changes) on the each of the injectors to see if it varies while cranking. Also check the resistances (and any changes) to earth during cranking. The earthing wires combine together under the manifold before heading for the ECU. Found an obscure misfire once due to a problem where the 4 +1 wires combined under the manifold. 

 

EDIT -  check voltages with injectors plugged in, earths with injectors unplugged.

 

Have you tried taking the plug leads off one at a time to see which cylinder(s) are misfiring?

 

Edited by PhilNW

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DamirGTI
Posted (edited)

As mentioned , black injectors sounds like 1.9 DFZ item (105 hp low compression engine) .. i'm not 100% sure either but also think those flow more than both 1.6 and (usual/common , yellow) 1.9 injectors ... if you give us a part No. we can check .

 

Other possibility is , they're the new replacement Bosch injectors ... new ones from Bosch nowadays are black (rated @ round 180cc if i remember) .

 

Tricky thing with 1.6 Jetronic management vs 1.9 Jetronic is that 1.6 gear it's actually made/programmed to run richer mixture from the factory ... thus mixing up components can lead to overfueling much easier on a 1.6 engine running 1.6 ECU .

 

With regards to the misfire , it only takes one bad injector .. as well as one bad wiring connector/plug/wire ... one bad spark plug , one ignition lead etc. .

 

Sometimes components fail specifically in certain conditions while they appear perfectly functional in other , such as when exposed to temperature both hot or cold ... say can start up perfectly fine from cold , and keep running fine in period up until fully heated up to the operating temp. then starts to "misbehave"/misfire .

Electronic components are commonly affected by that specific case scenario - injectors (internal coil fine when cold , but breaks down when running/heats up) , ignition coils (very common for going bad when hot and while under load) , ignition modules (vary , but also tend to dislike heat more than cold) .. heat , dampness/moisture , and vibrations are stuff which electronic components simply do not like .

 

I used to clean up injectors on ultrasonic machine at the mechanics years ago , if not in the fuel while refueling there's always capillary condensation within the fuel tanks .. and therefore water in fuel/system .

That water tends to settle and form scale deposits within the injector insides which , if really builds up heavily , blocks the injector pintle valve . Takes time but it does and no fuel or fuel cleaner/detergent will clean up/break that scale deposits off (varnish and gum yes , but not the scale deposits) , can be done only on ultrasonic cleaning machine . 

 

As you put an pair of say 10 years old injectors (never cleaned before) in the ultrasonic bath , connect them up and start the cleaning process few min. after the scale deposits will start "melting" and exiting from the injector insides in form or white/yellow powder .. i've seen it while cleaning both old and new(ish) injectors , obviously more so on older and those never cleaned before for a long time .

 

Also , sometimes expect to receive back f***d up injectors (one or a few or all of them) after ultrasonic cleaning , as one who does the cleaning must know how to , thus ask around first .. other times it is inevitably that some or all will be junk after the clean up if the scale was very hard and damaged the injector internals , in that case you'll need new ones .

 

If you have some old spare injectors , try them out instead of these black ones which where on while the car was left siting unused for the time the fuel in the system deteriorated/degraded ... and see what happens .

 

D

Edited by DamirGTI

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Mac Crash

Thanks for help lads....

some progress made I think. I've unplugged AFM and car starts, revs cleanly and with no misfire. I know it shouldn't run with AFM unplugged but it does.

I'm presuming thus the problem lies somewhere else. I've checked the vacuum advance hose from the distributor, it's present and looks fine.

 

I've took the AFM apart and cleaned the track, flaps moves freely. Thing I don't understand is how can the flap open when it's unplugged?

 

To rule the AFM out I've got a spare one (albeit 1.9 one) and tried this on the car to see if it makes any difference - before doing this though I marked the

original position then moved the wheel clockwise by seven teeth to make it more lean just as a test. One thing I noticed is that the tension on a 1.9 AFM

feels heavier than the 1.6 one. Anyway with the 1.9 AFM plugged in the engine fired up and went to fast idle (like cold start one) for 10 or 15 seconds then

after that it's just the same as the original AFM, it won't take any throttle load and misfires badly.

 

I've hear mention of the coolant temperature sensor, I have some spare ones of these, is this worth trying? could it be something as simple as this?

Any help would be appreciated.

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PhilNW

A comment of mine from an earlier thread re running with the AFM unplugged

 

The ecu controls the amount required for each injection via an internal ecu calculation based on the AFM and temp inputs. I would guess there is a default value for the amount of fuel injected based on the normal expected fuel pressure (approx 45 psi) which allows the engine to run if there is no signal. If the ecu gets an input from the AFM for example it will override the default and will change the fuel injected to what it thinks is the correct amount again based on 45psi, with a low fuel pressure it is not enough to run.

 

I have a theory that the ECU has default values which are built in (allowing the engine to run) which are overridden by the readings from the AFM and temp sensor.

The flap operates on a internal spring, the track arm sends a signal back to ECU.

Haynes manual has values for the resistances for the AFM and temp sensor.

 

Suggest you test  the pump pressure, temp sensor , and check the external connections to the AFM and temp sensor 

 

 

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DamirGTI

We had similar issue over here not that long ago (works with the AFM unplugged , stalls with it plugged back) ... culprit was the fuel pump (in that particular case , was an cheap knock off Chinese aliexpress pump) .

 

Likely the pump fails to maintain system pressure , either being old/tired thus unable to do so or leaking pressure (there's two O-rings inside the fuel pump which can go bad/harden and leak .. or you might have a split/crack/leak on the mushroom looking rubber sleeve which connects the fuel pump outlet with the pump housing ..)

 

Or it can be still affected by that stale fuel deposits remains inside the fuel tank .. did you clean up and flush the fuel tank free from those deposits prior to pump replacement ?

 

It's amazing how little of that deposits is enough to damage/lock up the fuel pump roller cell .. barely visible tiny layer will do , i've lost 4 pumps because of that crap (made them work after but had to fully disassemble them)

 

 

D

 

Edited by DamirGTI

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28hodge

To help i have stripped a pump out of a car that has stood for the last 20 years, the pump would twitch so was fine electrically but wouldnt turn as it was stuck up with dried fuel. you can just see it on the impellor as the brown section which is dried fuel.

 

jivHgcp.jpg

 

The pumps are very easy to dismantle, and reassemble ( I say this i cant get mine to actually draw fuel through itself after putting it back together but it is now turning, so i may have just put a plate on in the wrong orientation. about to head out now so will take some more pics)

 

kXCpLZJ.jpg

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