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Arthur

brake option for rear

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Arthur

Ahh, yes. I tried to remember the "what brakes fit on what hubs" topic that you wrote. From head I though 306/7 is the same, but it's actually the 307/8 that is equal. sorry.

 

So if I find a 82mm bearing, but 16mm joint, ZX, I might have a donor to give me most parts I need. will keep that in mind. Thanks. 

 

In the meantime a teaser on what I'm doing to the rear atm. I'm re-arranging the inner AND outer shell to make a nice and big area to glue/bolt my fake glas fibre rallye arches to. (maxy motorsport). It's a big job, but I'll end up with more room than a standard gti/rallye shell, in the end. Started on the petrol filler side, which would seem the more difficult side.  

 

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Edited by Arthur

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welshpug

zx, like 306, will give you positive camber, as the clamp is bored at a different angle, this can be fixed

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Arthur

Yes, I understand. 306/ZX hubs an option when I address the camber I loose AND give even a tad more than standard. And thus need about 20 - 25 mm longer driveshafts that will then have the 25 tooth inner cv joints.  And thus kill 3 birds with one stone. 

Edited by Arthur

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welshpug

those hubs wont need longer driveshafts.

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petert

Here are the extended Bridgecaft axles I spoke of earlier. They have some surface rust (easily removed) but are otherwise brand new. If you know someone with a mill, they're an easy way to have whatever rear alignment you want. Make me a silly offer if you're keen. They weren't quite long enough for my needs, ie -3º camber and 15x8 -4ET wheels. Length is 131.5mm to the shoulder. In the other pic you can see the aluminum spacer I made to position the caliper in the correct position for the longer axles.

rear brake spacer.jpg

extended rear axles.jpg

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Arthur
15 hours ago, welshpug said:

those hubs wont need longer driveshafts.

 

They do when I add 20mm to my trailing arms to get back to 1- 1,5 neg camber. Right? 

 

I'm sorry if I'm fussy. I'm not a native English speaker.

 

In this scenario, with 306 hubs, I would add about 20 to 25 mm to my trailing arm's AND drive shafts. A bit to get more camber, like the 309 arms solution, and then yet another bit to compensate for the loss of camber the 306 hubs give me. This might get me to driveshafts lengths for standard 306 or 206.  So this then also give me the opportunity to switch to the fat outer CV joints. 

 

In other words, kill 3 birds with one stone without completely drying out the bank account. 

 

Again, i don't mind a nifty handling car, but yet again it's just a road car. I'm not willing to spend an enormous amount. But If, and only if, my theories are right,  it might be worth it all for relative cheap money and relative easy work. 

Edited by Arthur

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Arthur
1 hour ago, petert said:

Here are the extended Bridgecaft axles I spoke of earlier. They have some surface rust (easily removed) but are otherwise brand new. If you know someone with a mill, they're an easy way to have whatever rear alignment you want. Make me a silly offer if you're keen. They weren't quite long enough for my needs, ie -3º camber and 15x8 -4ET wheels. Length is 131.5mm to the shoulder. In the other pic you can see the aluminum spacer I made to position the caliper in the correct position for the longer axles.

rear brake spacer.jpg

extended rear axles.jpg

I'll keep it in mind. First I need to know how much I need. I guess shipping will be s*it now after brexit. Officially I would even have to pay customs duty. 

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petert

Pay duty on rusty parts? Postage would be AUS$83. Probably easier/safer to get someone to turn some up for you. It takes me less than one hour to make a pair. I used 4140 steel.

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Arthur
21 minutes ago, petert said:

Pay duty on rusty parts? Postage would be AUS$83. Probably easier/safer to get someone to turn some up for you. It takes me less than one hour to make a pair. I used 4140 steel.

O s*it, I assumed you were in the UK. At work we have a mill, but unsure whether they can do this. I'm now also contacting a local Peugeot/Citroen scrapyard to see what they can do. They do understand terms like 82mm hub and 25 teeth CV joint and the lot, so that's a good sign. 

Edited by Arthur

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Arthur

Thanks for your help guys. really appreciate. 

 

I don't mind a nifty handling car, but yet again it's just a road car. I'm not willing to spend an enormous amount. But If, and only if, my theories are right,  it might be worth it all for relative cheap money and relative easy work. your input is very useful to make that decision. 

Edited by Arthur

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welshpug

trailing arm is rear,  I guess you mean wishbone/front control arm.

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Arthur

Yes, I do. That makes it fussy I guess. I thought whisbone was more American English

 

Found this on 306 webside. For the rear!

 

Confusing. A dull 306 1.8 would be about same toe as 205 but more camber and a ZX no toe at all? Would a zx arm be over doing it then? 306 is far more common than zx here....

 

I bet I can find an xu7 engined (older model with 16mm pin) here for a case of beer with a bit of patience. The 1.8 was the engine almost al went for in the Netherlands. 

 

year..............Make..............Model......... ..........Variant...............................Toe..........Camber (degrees/minutes)
85 - 92..........Peugeot..........205.................. .....1.6 GTI, 1.9 GTI, Rallye.......3.6...........0.5
85 - 92..........Peugeot..........205 / 309..............Base............................. ......3.1..........0.5
93 -->...........Peugeot..........205................... ....Cab, Van, Base....................3.4..........0.5
86 - 90..........Peugeot..........309.................. .....GTI.....................................3.8.. .......0.5
90 - 93..........Peugeot..........309.................. .....GTI, GTI16..........................5............1.15
94 -->...........Peugeot..........306................... ....S16, GTI-6..........................4.2..........1.2
97 -->...........Peugeot..........306................... ....1.8 16v...............................3.4..........1.2
98 -->...........Citroen...........Xsara................ ....Base...................................4.5.... ......1.2
98 -->...........Citroen...........Xsara................ ....VTS.....................................5..... .......1.2
93 -->...........Citroen...........ZX................... ......Base, 16v............................0.............1

Edited by Arthur

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wicked

Rear:

Note that the 306 numbers are only valid when fitted under 306. The arms under a 205 sit under a different angle, hence it will have different toe and camber if you fit a 306 arm under a 205. 

If you send arms to Bridgecraft, they will as for measurements on your car to determine the right angle. 

 

Front:

It think 309 arms give you about 1.2? degrees of camber. Fitting 306 hubs will likely eat 0.5 degrees of that and you'll end up with 0.7, which almost same as stock, but wider.

Does not make sense on your car to have much camber on the rears than on the front.

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Arthur
25 minutes ago, wicked said:

Rear:

Note that the 306 numbers are only valid when fitted under 306. The arms under a 205 sit under a different angle, hence it will have different toe and camber if you fit a 306 arm under a 205. 

If you send arms to Bridgecraft, they will as for measurements on your car to determine the right angle. 

 

Front:

It think 309 arms give you about 1.2? degrees of camber. Fitting 306 hubs will likely eat 0.5 degrees of that and you'll end up with 0.7, which almost same as stock, but wider.

Does not make sense on your car to have much camber on the rears than on the front.

You comment on the rear goes above my head. The beam is 90 degrees from the centerline of the car and the arm is 90 degrees to the beam. So how on earth can this be true? Or it this the assumption that is the mother of all my f*ckups?  In that case please forget all after "Hi all"

 

Your comment on the front I can understand. I understood 306 hubs would "eat" about 1 degree so you end up with only 0,2. My idea was to add another 10mm on the wishbone or subframe to end up with 1,5 orso. And then 1.2 at the back seems reasonable for a street car with oomph, but not a dedicated racer.  

 

This was all fueled by the idea that 20mm (about) longer wishbones or 20mm wider subframe up front would just get me to 620 - 877 standard 306 drive shafts length and give me a nice but not extreme camber of about 1,5. The wider track at the rear, although not necessary, but with the a tad more camber yet standard toe, also to not hurtful, would fill my wheel arch a bit better. Pure and alone for the looks, which seems fine as long as it doesn't worsen the handling. The 306 hubs and driveshafts would put me to the bigger CV joint so less likely to kill them and at a bonus, I would also probably have 266 brake calipers at my disposal which seem the nice intermediate size for my car. And when all this is true, I can get all I need from an old 306 that's worth nothing here in the Netherlands. While on the other hand, the mere 3 letter combo "gti" alone let's every register rinkle over here. For example I have a 9 inch 306 brake booster in mine and took it apart brand new, to change the angel of the pump to the bolt pattern at the back. 60 euro's. The same booster for 205 gti is 200 euro, and even then every supplier calls you back to tell you the stock on the website is wrong, and it's not available anymore. (9 inch fits when you have the booster ,pedals and steering wheel on the left side of the car)

 

I would take me a lot of elbow grease, but a nice setup for cheap imo. Unless my assumptions are wrong, that is. Of course bridecraft-ish options are best, but that's just to steep for me for a sunday oldtimer with some decent power. The transport to the UK alone would cost me a fortune and after Brexit a lot of headache as a bonus. Racing is far bigger in the UK, and you have a lot more people also. The main reason I'm on this forum and not on Dutch forums. They are all quite dead and knowledge is far better here. 

 

 

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wicked
20 minutes ago, Arthur said:

You comment on the rear goes above my head. The beam is 90 degrees from the centerline of the car and the arm is 90 degrees to the beam. So how on earth can this be true? Or it this the assumption that is the mother of all my f*ckups?  In that case please forget all after "Hi all"

 

 

 

You look at the wrong angle; If you would lower a 306 with 20cm (don't know if that is the exact diff), your wheel bearing will sit higher than the beam; that is how a 205 arm is mounted. 

Lowering with that amount on a 306, would make that the camber will turn into toe in. So likely you will have less camber and more toe in than you would expect from your list above. 

But it might still be good enough for you. 

 

 

Quote

 


Your comment on the front I can understand. I understood 306 hubs would "eat" about 1 degree so you end up with only 0,2. My idea was to add another 10mm on the wishbone or subframe to end up with 1,5 orso. And then 1.2 at the back seems reasonable for a street car with oomph, but not a dedicated racer.  
 

 

Widening your subframe wll probably give issues with your ARB and you must trust your welding skills. I can weld, but I would not trust my own welding to modify my subframe like that. 

 

 

Did you consider fitting 8J wheels iso all mods to your suspension??

As you have steelies, you can have them widened for less work and money?

 

Edited by wicked

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Arthur
1 hour ago, wicked said:

 

You look at the wrong angle; If you would lower a 306 with 20cm (don't know if that is the exact diff), your wheel bearing will sit higher than the beam; that is how a 205 arm is mounted. 

Lowering with that amount on a 306, would make that the camber will turn into toe in. So likely you will have less camber and more toe in than you would expect from your list above. 

But it might still be good enough for you. 

 

 

Widening your subframe wll probably give issues with your ARB and you must trust your welding skills. I can weld, but I would not trust my own welding to modify my subframe like that. 

 

 

Did you consider fitting 8J wheels iso all mods to your suspension??

As you have steelies, you can have them widened for less work and money?

 

 

Ahh, oké. But why is that? Is that the 306 geometry not being precise 90 degrees, or the fact that it's a rear steering, flex mounted beam? It being a trailing arm (taken literally), the camber and toe never change in what position ever, right. Or does it? It's not so low the rear arm is above horizontal same for the front. I always though it's best to be horizontal while doing you maximum g force corner (front) because the arm (also arm is to be taken literally) is longest at that point giving you max camber spot on at the max g-force just before your tire slip becomes ridiculous. Because above horizontal lessens the camber while cornering and spring compression. All that taken from the "how to not" lower your car. Different for the rear. The arm is longest when it's horizontal So just at that point the torsion bar force x the arm is at the lowest. The main reason torsion bar setup is not ideal for racing. 

 

I have the aluminum Citroen C5 steelie lookalike, which I' quite happy with to be honest. they are very light. Mine is supposed to be a rallye lookalike, so happy with these rims. 

 

I'm not saying I will do the subframe, but If I would, I would take a profile that is the right size. 40 x 70 orso? Or a u-profile. Drill the holes first to the width I want. Cut some parts out to get it flush with the subframe. Weld it and after that, cut even more out to end up with something similar to original. This would ensure proper fitment, strengths and alignment imo. The way the swivel points are being stressed doesn't worry me to much tbh. I could also leave some profile party there extra to create a subframe brace. I would have to see where my sump is it being tu engined. It's just an idea which I wonder why no one ever did it. Me being ignorant might be the reason. 

 

I have tig, but no prof welder either. But I could also tag it, and take it to work where I have a prof welder who is certified even for gas pipelines. Custom welded tubular arm would also be a solution, but that's where I think my skill's are not enough. 

Edited by Arthur

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welshpug

as the arm travels in an arc, due to it being a trailing arm, the toe and camber angle change.

 

the only way this would not change is on a double wishbone setup with horizontal mountings or a McPherson strut with no caster.

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Arthur

Ahh, yes I think I get it now. To take it to the extreme, 2 deg camber will become 2 deg toe after 90 degrees of rotation. So that is why you take zero toe of the zx, and end up with 3 to 4 isch because you rotate x amount depending on your ride height. (Duh) 

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Arthur

So for the rear.

 

Assuming ZX camber and toe angles. And assuming 20 degrees of difference between the zx angle of the trailing arm and a slightly lowered 205. One would get 20/9th  of change. right? So that would give a 205 with zx arms:

 

0 deg toe will be 13,3 minutes (0.22 degrees) of toe

1 deg camber will become 46.6 minutes (0,88) of camber

 

Rounded of and thereabout, but it would give more camber then standard and even less toe. The camber change is not very significant, but the toe is rather big change. This would make the rear twitchy but direct? As stated already; the front is far more important. 

 

I must say this is very interesting and although I'm an engineer, I never even went into this so deep. Probably because I don't race except for karting. I have always wondered how front and rear react to each other, but that would be a whole new topic, probably already in the sticky about this somewhere.  I can imagine the front is key, and the rear will follow, but that would be up until an extern I guess. Goes to far for my car. 

 

 

Edited by Arthur

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petert

The change in toe is huge. It's visibly quite wrong when you see a 306 arm on a 205. It's not twitchy at all. That's the problem. It just kills a 205, turning it into a zombie.

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Arthur

Oké. I'm not yet keen enough on how it works. The rear follows the front, yet toe in the back makes turn-in dull? I really hate that. Although having only karting experience, I hate a car that gives me a feeling the steering wheel is not connected to the front wheels at all. Driven a Octavia without arb ones. You turn, 1/2 sec later it rolls, and again 1/2 sec later the car turns. That's %&**& awful. My dull 998cc, 3 pot Focus on the other hand is on rails. 

 

I have a feeling that my 205 is 100% on the outer front in the turn-in, it can be a 3 wheeler at times, but still makes the corner, only it rolls and without power steering and a tu5, you get sweaty. Especially when you do a little bit of the braking after turn in to the apex still, and not all deceleration on the strait line. But it doesn't oversteer. While the 106 rallye I used to have, with rock hard suspension of which I never new the specs, would be at the limit of oversteer at that same time. Have had to look though the side window to see where I'm going several times with my 106 rallye. 

 

Exit off the apex with my 205 on the other hand gives inner wheelspin a lot and it feels like the rear is too soft and it squats a bit much. Also of the line wheelspin is a lot. I do use the standard C2 vts cams so engine is torque tuned. Could easily get 180 out of it, but same reason it's not a dedicated racer, I don't. It pull like a train from 1500 to 7500 anyhow. Same reason I have diesel Final drive in a BE4r box. Even with that it spins. In wet even in seconds at 80 km/h (50 miles). I, not sure on how my current tires are. A nice and soft, but street legal semi slick might improve things massively. With the miles I do, mileage is of lesser importance. 

 

Although I only use local roads and never go to track, this might be why prefer I twichy/direct car. But not so much I will spent 2000 on a car I drive 20 hours a year.

 

Edited by Arthur

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wicked
6 hours ago, Arthur said:

Although I only use local roads and never go to track, this might be why prefer I twichy/direct car. But not so much I will spent 2000 on a car I drive 20 hours a year.

 

If that is what you're after, I think you better:

- keep your trailing arms and wishbones as is with current camber

- Fit a short gearbox with quaife lsd

- Fit Bilstein B6 kit

- Fit 15-20mm spacers on all 4 wheels.

- Fit 266mm brakes with decent pads (will go on base model hubs)

 

Rose jointed wishbones and modded trailing arms by Bridgecraft (shipping and tax is expensive due to brexit) is probably already eating most of your budget.

(Running that myself on my trackday car and it is awesome, but not cheap).

 

Edited by wicked
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Arthur

Hmmmm

 

I've spent some more time on internet. Info is sometimes contradictory. Even on this forum 306 arms are sometimes seen as a good upgrade, but sometimes not. Even 306 arms on a 309 arm. The matrix from above tells me 306 gti has a lot of toe. And also Peter tells us it's so much it even looks odd on a 205. But other info I found, tells me all 306 are the same arms, only with different stub axles, drums/disk and hubs. 

 

From the pictures I can find, I think the angle of the 306 arm on a 205 is maximum change of about 10 deg. So If the 306 gti is 5 deg toe, and it turns into 5;10 toe on a 205, it is a lot indeed and I can imagine that makes it dull. 

 

Then again from what I see from above table, base model 306 (3,4 toe, 1,2 camber) , would turn into about the same toe as 205 gti (3.6) with 1:1 camber. That cant be bad imo. ZX arms would be 0,1 toe and 1.1 camber, which to me seems beneficial on track. More direct but also less stable on high speed (although I can't find any complaints) 

 

I'll put this on my long term wish list. Should I find zx arms (not so likely) or a whole scrap 306 for a case of beer, I might be having a go and measure it all up. 

 

http://www.peugeotlogic.com/workshop/wshtml/mechanic/306susp/306align/align306.htm#4

 

according above standard is 20 minutes of toe. 

Edited by Arthur

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