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petert

Are Diesel and Petrol Starter Motors Interchangeable?

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petert

I'm in the market for a new starter motor and I discovered that Valeo offers both petrol and higher power diesel options (see attached for 1.9L to BE3 options for example). The only physical difference I can see is that petrol has 9 teeth and diesel has 11 teeth. Can anyone tell me why? I balked at this because friend Parry bought a Powerlite starter (with 11T) which destroyed his flywheel. Is there any difference between diesel and petrol ring gears?

 

The only supporting evidence I can find on here is an ad from Bakes100 selling his.

 

 

Ignoring the crazy pricing, the Valeo 438069 certainly looks good for a high compression engine.

Screen Shot 2021-04-10 at 1.41.19 pm.png

Screen Shot 2021-04-10 at 1.41.13 pm.png

Screen Shot 2021-04-10 at 1.40.02 pm.png

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petert

I think I may have found the answer. Petrol XU's have 136 teeth on the flywheel. Diesel, including the 307 HDi, have 133 teeth. The only exception I can find is the 406 1.9L TD, which may have either. I can only imagine that mismatching the teeth eventually destroys the ring gear.

405 1.9TD flywheel.png

307 2.0 HDi 90.png

405 2L 16V Flywheel.png

406 2.0 HDi flywheel .png

406 1.9TD flywheel.png

Edited by petert

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Gohn

I converted a petrol Si to diesel so wondered that myself

but didn't look into it because I had a diesel starter I could use

 

I was able to check the different str motors against what's on your list above  (have 2 x Petrol Valeo, and 1 x Diesel Mtsbshi starters)

the petrol str motor has 9teeth on the little starter cog and is on a 12mm diametre shaft

the diesel str mtr has 12teeth on the starter cog and its shaft is also 12mm diametre

(measured the shafts in case its possible to take off a petrol starter cog and put it onto a diesel starter or Vice versa

still not positive but I think the cog is interference fit ? so probably  ?)

 

also confirmed the diesel flywheel ring gear has 136teeth

 

those prices are a bit mental, you could have one of my Si Petrol starter motors,  if you think it'll cope with whatever engine you're needing it for ..

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petert

Now you've confused me. I thought the diesel ring gear would be 133T?

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Fallowsnz

I fitted a starter from a 307 hdi to my 1.9 gti and it worked really well, was sceptical about the extra teeth but had no issues. Also managed to fit a starter from an ew to the tu3 in my xs..  It's impossible to find new starters for old peugeots in NZ and the shipping cost from the uk is alot for a heavy starter, so i sourced both locally from a car wreckers.

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SweetBadger

Hmm, I used a Valeo XU diesel starter (later geared type) on my MI16 engine back when it was my daily drive.
 

Standard MI flywheel at the time.

 

Never gave a thought to teeth count I’m afraid, so can’t help there, but it worked well, didn’t make any nasty noises, and the flywheel ring gear looked fine when I removed it years later.

 

Perhaps I got lucky with the particular diesel starter I had? In which case there should be a version that is compatible.

 

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Gohn
3 hours ago, petert said:

I thought the diesel ring gear would be 133T?

Im confused also

took off the little cover plate, put a spot on one tooth and rotated it while counting. 136

 

just checked the catalog, pic below

?

 

 

Screen Shot 2021-04-11 at 10.24.22 PM.png

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Gohn

oops, forgot to put the petrol flywheels in

still not clear though

petrolflywheels.png

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wicked

I think it is done more often with success. I just put a diesel starter on my cti (mi16) and mechanically it fits. Did not try it yet. I think the lower teeth count is to lower the cranking rpm to cope with the higher compression of diesels. But that that is just a guess... 

 

What was wrong with the powerlite? Have 1 on the shelf, about to fit it on another mi16... 

Edited by wicked

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petert

The Powerlite mashed the teeth on a TTV flywheel.

 

136/9 = 15

133/11 = 12

So that means the diesel has less mechanical advantage.

Edited by petert

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SRDT

The 133T and 136T probably don't have the same pitch/module. As for having more or less teeth on the starter it's not a problem as long as you change the center distance accordingly.

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wicked
13 hours ago, petert said:

The Powerlite mashed the teeth on a TTV flywheel.

 

136/9 = 15

133/11 = 12

So that means the diesel has less mechanical advantage.

 

Any clue why? Do you think the shape of the teeth was incorrect? Or was the material of the TTV fly to soft to cope with the instant torque of the Powerlite?
 

The diesel starters have more power and made for high compression diesels. With lower compression petrol they might, because of excess power, spin faster than on diesels and end up in same cranking rpm ballpark as standard petrol starter and maybe even crank faster than a petrol starter on a very high compression petrol engine. Would not make it too academic; I just picked up a low mileage diesel starter for 50 quid from a 1.9TD.

Peugeot numbers were:

5802M3
5802FJ
5802CP

 

And if I google on it, the say it (the 5802M3) has 1.4kW and 11T??

Edited by wicked

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petert

All good questions. The issue is I have a TTV flywheel as well and I don't want it ruined. As you're probably aware, the teeth are integral and not replaceable like oem.

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Ozymandis

I looked into diesel starters a few years ago, the number of teeth on the pinion varies and yet they all fit the one ring gear.

I tried it and had no problem at all with different numbers of pinion teeth, I tried a bigger old style Bosch one, a reduction geared type( japanese make possibly mitsubishi it was a while ago) and a valeo type, all worked with no engagement or teeth wear problems.

 

The only problem one was a no name possibly Chinese copy of the early big Bosch one it had some fundamental error in the machining of the pinion, it stayed engaged and gave a shower of sparks from the ring gear.

 

I looked again when the common rail Siemens managed Diesel engines got a bit older, they become poor starters as time goes by, as the ecu wont start the engine until it spins at a set minimum rpm. They all had the 1.4kw geared Jap type and were fixed by putting the early Big Bosch ones on  1.7kw I think they are.

 

Diesel Starters do fit petrols and the number of teeth can be different without any problem with the ring gear, I have tried.

 

 

 

 

 

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wicked
1 hour ago, petert said:

All good questions. The issue is I have a TTV flywheel as well and I don't want it ruined. As you're probably aware, the teeth are integral and not replaceable like oem.

Powerlites are 1.4kW and I have a OEM fly, so I'm not that worried. 

  

With the TTV I probably would stay away from the 1.7kW's and try a 1.2kW petrol starter first.  Over here you can find them plenty at breakers with low mileage for a few quid.

If they cannot deal with the higher compression, then get a 1.4kW.

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Gohn

Is it possible to go the other way and put a petrol starter on a diesel engine ?

 

Anyone done that ?

 

Or is it just gunna be underpowered and struggle or burn out in a few months ?

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