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artois7

309 GTI 5 door ex road rally build

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artois7

Took delivery of a 309 GTI shell last night - I'm a sucker for 205s and wanted the bigger cousin.

 

Background: car was a road rally car in Wales for many years. I bought it unseen as a shell with no engine or suspension. It's inevitably worse than I was told, but probably more solid rust wise than I expected, so overall a win.

 

Problem I have now is I have no idea what direction to go with it - either going to be a battle scarred daily if I throw an original 1.9 lump in it, or build it up as a mi16 track toy / weekend car (but I already have a mi16 205 gti for this).

 

Being ex road rally, there's not a panel on it without a dent, scratch, scuff or damage.

 

Pics of the mess sat on the driveway currently:

 

afuGqRJN.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/afuGqRJN


YTcmLIxD.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/YTcmLIxD

 

Picture of the same car from a rally event around 2012:

 

oN85zcTL.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/oN85zcTL

 

And finally, what I'm sort of picturing as the end result (but with much worse paint!)

 

ZqHzPT3U.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/ZqHzPT3U

 

 

This is accompanying a phase 1 '87 1.6 205 gti and a '90 phase 2 mi16 powered 205 gti (both currently in various states of brokenness). 

 

Her name is Gretchen, and I have no idea what to do with her :D Updates will come and as when ..

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artois7

When I said progress would be slow - I meant it..! First half of the year was consumed with a bathroom renovation and a headgasket / top end rebuild on the mi16. Anyway...

 

The first thing I will say is I had no idea how difficult it would be finding 309 parts. For the most part, they're just not out there, and the ones that are, people either don't want to sell or want extortionate money for.

 

Secondly, I didn't know it didn't have a GTI front bumper until it got here, nor did I realise that GTI front bumpers don't come up for sale, and the ones I have seen have all been damaged and still advertised at £200+.

 

Starting with the exterior bodywork:

 

Dektjv1Q.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/Dektjv1Q

7UruzJoz.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/7UruzJoz

UTlO5HD7.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/UTlO5HD7

Lj4JoZ8w.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/Lj4JoZ8w

JSKFC8Ry.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/JSKFC8Ry

W4A7nc1X.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/W4A7nc1X

Qh735zEn.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/Qh735zEn

 

Nice little dent in the NS rear quarter I wasn't told about..

 

NdhjKSVk.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/NdhjKSVk

gbMhoO6q.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/gbMhoO6q

XDinUCYh.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/XDinUCYh

Xgtgg3HD.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/Xgtgg3HD

XH8jxFtr.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/XH8jxFtr

 

So body work wise, it's as expected. All panels are scratched / dented / dinged etc. Whatever. This isn't going to be a resto, just trying to save it from the scrap yard.

What came with the car, I hear you ask? Fantastic question. More in the next post...

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artois7

So, what came with the car?

 

Firstly, a driver's door lock that doesn't have a key, rear doors that are a struggle to open (and then struggle to close), mismatched door / ignition / boot locks, etc etc etc. Whatever.

 

Interior shots:

 

We have some seats. The driver's seat doesn't have a runner. The rest are "OK" in terms of foam / bolsters but are filthy. A wet vac should see these serviceable.

 

TSFdGTTi.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/TSFdGTTi

VxqRa51w.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/VxqRa51w

 

The car has had a hydraulic handbrake fitted, the cables are in place but not attached at either end, so this must have just been here for show at MOT time. A brake bias valve is fitted too:

 

kTFbKIYF.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/kTFbKIYF

IMaenOcI.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/IMaenOcI

 

Understandable mods given it was a road rally car.

The passenger footwell has a foot rest, again, rally car mod. This will come out if it's not done too much damage to the floor pan:

 

epBB9j5V.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/epBB9j5V

That one leads us nicely into the copious amounts of dodgy wiring and missing panels in the interior:

 

SBwUi3De.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/SBwUi3De

Rjv9rz72.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/Rjv9rz72

yllTYL5v.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/yllTYL5v

sMELyl2t.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/sMELyl2t

 

Carpet is in OK condition, and the trim should be fairly obtainable. The A pillar trim will probably prove quite difficult, and the dash is quite mangled with dodgy screws, but overall, it's fine.

It's done 123k ish miles (if these are the original clocks. MOT history checks out):

bSXUqgR4.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/bSXUqgR4

Happy with the interior condition then. Better than expected and all manageable. Inside the car, it also came with a strut brace that is in need of paint, and calipers / discs from a 406 (I think) which are an upgrade over standard. The discs look OK so the calipers will be rebuilt and used:

glkieGKE.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/glkieGKE

FuYHQdrD.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/FuYHQdrD

That's the extent of the goodies in the interior, until I remove the carpet and see the floor pan condition. That's one for another day.

What's in the boot? Next post...

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artois7

I was under the impression the boot was empty, so to see anything was a pleasant surprise. Let's get the bad out of the way - a spare wheel carrier. Again, road rally car, not surprised, but it's not for me.

8BE9UNlT.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/8BE9UNlT

Pleasantly surprised to see a grill with the mounts intact. I also have a radiator, a twin fan set up, the battery tray, some random wiring and a broken exhaust heat shield:

h5UnDoX9.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/h5UnDoX9

MNdEIHX6.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/MNdEIHX6

dWp4b8cD.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/dWp4b8cD

Boot carpet is salvageable and it's nice to see an intact parcel shelf. Under the carpet:

j6FmtHEA.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/j6FmtHEA

At first impression, it looks clean, but there is a distinct amount of movement in the boot floor, so I suspect the sound deadening might be hiding something. Can't see anything nasty from underneath either though so if something is amiss, I can't quite see it from an initial prod.

Did find some rust in the boot - will get to that in the post after next.

Next post: engine bay!

 

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artois7
artois7

As mentioned, the inner arches appear to be solid, which is great.

The first bit of rust found is the front impact bar:

gsZ1JJME.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/gsZ1JJME

The extent of this will be more obvious once I've removed the front bumper and stripped down the front end.

Found what I suspect will turn into a rust repair in one of the seams in the engine bay - a quick poke revealed a bit of a crunch. Will go after this one after the engine bay is stripped:

UOYOIP47.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/UOYOIP47

Arguably the worst section of the car now; the windscreen. A proper repair will be quite involved here, but a "that'll do" lick of paint will be OK if I end up just tracking it:

uB1eiEwL.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/uB1eiEwL

KvbrLABj.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/KvbrLABj

4ZyG08X8.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/4ZyG08X8

Yua7alRe.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/Yua7alRe

ZGUchUP4.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/ZGUchUP4

I think the proper repair for that would involve removing the windscreen, which unless I decided to pursue a full respray, isn't worth it IMO. This is a problem for later.

Next up, There is some rust in both front arches. 99% of the arch on both sides is decent, but all bumper mounts (front and back!) have gone, and there is rust on both sides on an interior panel (not sure of the name yet):

TE1Noyyi.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/TE1Noyyi

cwMBiSXT.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/cwMBiSXT

gu9v7zHW.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/gu9v7zHW

wML2b2zj.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/wML2b2zj

KYHkCBQB.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/KYHkCBQB

VsqTrcuG.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/VsqTrcuG

Bumper mounts are common on 205s as well so this isn't a surprise.

The floor pan is decent from having my head underneath. Will know more when I strip the interior out. Rear arches are the same story with the bumper mounts gone. The last bit of actual rust is inside the boot, where the floor meets the edges:

2ulNISez.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/2ulNISez

UuTvt5Ph.jpg|https://thumbsnap.com/UuTvt5Ph

It's gone on both sides, I haven't prodded it yet, this is pretty much how I found it. I don't think this will be an MOT problem so I'm not sure the extent this will be repaired.  I think this will be quite involved for an actual repair, too.

Now, I should caveat that I've never touched a welder. I've wanted to learn for a while, and this will be the project I'll learn with.

That'll be the end of the updates for today - I've spent a few months looking for a set of 1.9 hubs and purchased some recently, but the wheel bearings are knackered so these will be getting stripped down, rebuilt and repainted. I also purchased some pretty awful gold/bronze 1.9 speedlines when I thought I would find it easier to find suspension to make it a rolling shell.

I'm still unsure what direction the car will be going in. I think the most likely direction will be a GTI6 engine dropping in, the MOT failure rust sorting, get it MOT'd and decide what to do with it. Not sure if it will be the new daily or the new track toy.

The first job is going to be stripped the front end down, i.e. bumper off and engine bay stripped down. Starting soon, updates in the next week I hope. Thanks for reading if you got this far!

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Graz

Looks like a lot of work. You’ll become a seasoned pro welder by the end of this project. 

I’d  be tempted with the gti6 engine or a v6 and keep it looking standard ish. Sort interior as next you can and making comfortable and practical but also a bit quick when it’s needed. 

 

Look forward to seeing you progress it along. 

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artois7
23 hours ago, Graz said:

Looks like a lot of work. You’ll become a seasoned pro welder by the end of this project. 

I’d  be tempted with the gti6 engine or a v6 and keep it looking standard ish. Sort interior as next you can and making comfortable and practical but also a bit quick when it’s needed. 

 

Look forward to seeing you progress it along. 

 

Keeping it looking standard is definitely key. It's not going to get much in terms of paint work as I'm not too bothered, and it won't be getting a cage or anything. Standard interior (probably keep the hydraulic handbrake and bias valve just cause it's there!).

 

I had considered a v6 but heard a lot of horror stories. I need to experience one myself. GTI6 is the most likely option but I'd like to see 200 bhp from this eventually (1.8T conversion potentially...)

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Tom Fenton

1.9 8v turbo, 200bhp piece of cake, 250bhp not difficult.

 

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artois7
2 hours ago, Tom Fenton said:

1.9 8v turbo, 200bhp piece of cake, 250bhp not difficult.

 

 

Which is the better base for a turbo, 1.9 or gti6? It seems a lot easier to find a gti6 conversion package than it is to find a decent running 1.9 and associated bits now (afm etc)

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Anthony

If you must go down the turbo route, probably the easiest and cheapest option is a 2.0 8v Turbo (XU10J2TE) - I don't think it'll quite crack 200hp on standard management, but it's a fairly straight forward drop in package that's been done numerous times and is quite popular.  They're "real world" quick too as you've a wide spread of torque, although don't really like to rev in the manner than 1.6/1.9 GTi 8v engines do.

 

If you want boost on a GTi-6, sourcing one of the Lynx supercharger kits is probably the easiest/cheapest way to do it - gives around 250hp on standard internals (which necessitates restricted boost).

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artois7

Fair enough. It's all just pipeline stuff anyway. Initial focus is get the tinworm out of it, get it running and driving (when I can find a beam!) and go from there. A GTI6 will be a nice addition and make it a good daily driver if I go that route for relatively little money.

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Anthony

Agreed - get it sorted rust-wise and on the road before worrying about going silly with power.  IMO a standard GTi-6 is plenty quick enough for a daily anyway.

 

I've still go that stripped down 309 GTi beam that you said that you wanted previously - or is that destined for one of your other cars and you need another one?

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artois7
15 hours ago, Anthony said:

Agreed - get it sorted rust-wise and on the road before worrying about going silly with power.  IMO a standard GTi-6 is plenty quick enough for a daily anyway.

 

I've still go that stripped down 309 GTi beam that you said that you wanted previously - or is that destined for one of your other cars and you need another one?

 

You went quiet on me so I assumed you weren't keen anymore..!

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Richie-Van-GTi
23 hours ago, Anthony said:

Agreed - get it sorted rust-wise and on the road before worrying about going silly with power.  IMO a standard GTi-6 is plenty quick enough for a daily anyway.

 

I've still go that stripped down 309 GTi beam that you said that you wanted previously - or is that destined for one of your other cars and you need another one?

I'm still after one if you ever found the bits?

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artois7

Starting with a positive: I took the mi16 205 to a machine polisher / valeter this week, and my god; the difference! I took it there with horrible, flat, dull, pinkish paint. He returned it five hours later gleaming!

 

Full machine polish, full valet & a wet vacuum. Couple of pics:

 

Lum4m1dy.jpg

KQEyFcye.jpg

hjDmlsxY.jpg

CsfgTwZV.jpg

 

£45 all in to cover the machine polish, wet vac and valet. Well happy with the results. Almost don't want to drive it anywhere because I'm useless at cleaning cars and I want it stay this shiny! This isn't helping the sell vs keep debate as it's definitely a good time to sell it whilst it's looking at its best, but at the same time, it's so shiny!

 

On to the less positive.

 

Began stripping down the front end of the 309 to fully evaluate the rust situation. First job is remove the bumper and the ghastly fog light bar that had been installed (first step of de-rallying the car!):

 

p0mEmxj5.jpg

sqiPMYDZ.jpg

LVaeA8ei.jpg

 

and clean the inner wheel arch in case of any hidden nasties:

 

KJr3CPjh.jpg

 

So I can now see the extent of the rust to the front end. Cross beam has gone, bumper mounts have gone and the headlight panel on both sides have gone, starting to take out the inner wing sections:

 

MFeGHDe0.jpg

BGalVPA4.jpg

cjCAvibN.jpg

kzRrLHUF.jpg

ZcrX3R2W.jpg

F2soEtxD.jpg

kHWfcdOc.jpg

 

Couldn't get the power steering lines undone from the pump so I gave up stripping the engine bay there for the night.

 

Next steps are continue to strip the engine bay and do some research into what panels are available vs making up new ones. The father in law will be able to advise me next time he comes over; I'm thinking that picking up a base model donor 309 will be the way I go, as I can cut all the panels I need out of it and use some of the misc parts like door locks etc.

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