Strong Drive Shafts, Where From?

[pip470 61]

Im in the market for a set of super strong driveshafts, Ive read countles threads on here and broke many driveshafts.

 

They are for my drag project which i want to run drag slicks at santa pod so they will take a lot of abuse in 1st gear.

 

So far i have found spoox offering a nice set for £787 I think thats a bit steep but if they are proven then they are they are probably worth it.

http://www.spoox.co.uk/en/peugeot-205/3599-peugeot-205-19-gti-competition-driveshafts-pair.html

 

Then quaife shafts but it does not really say what you get, i think for the price they are charging you just get the shafts, so my next question would be where would you fing a place that sells cvs to make a complete shaft up?

http://quaife.co.uk/shop/products/d1a1-981

 

 

Any help much appreciated.

[Tom Fenton 1,525]

What is breaking, the joints or the shaft? From your pics it looks like joint problems, but a few folk recently (me included) have bust "recon" shafts actually in the centre of the shaft itself.

[welshpug 1,622]

they look like base model construction CV joints, so its not surprising you are having issues with them!

 

Shortened 306 shafts may suit, hollow shaft construction, larger CV's than 1.9/309 gti.

 

same CV's as a 406 with BE shafts I believe also.

Edited October 24, 2013 by welshpug

[pip470 61]

Ive only personally had problems with the joints, They are on lowered cars but the drag car will be lowered on the front too. When i look at the shafts on the car they are virtually parallel to the floor which i thought would be a good thing but maybe someone knows if thats actually wrong. They have been whatever my local parts guy can get hold of, usually from fps and are normally amk drive shafts. Ive also had loads of issues of not being able to get the bottom ball joint back in with the new shafts. I will spend some time measuring all the shaft lengths i have. I do have a set of 306 shafts on the shelf which do look a lot more substantial.

 

I know this topic comes up a lot and shafts usually handle what they are given but i really really don't want to break a shaft after 3 years of building only to be let down on the start line. If I can do it right first time then then id like to do it.

 

Out of interest tom, Are you on 1.9 shafts in your turbo?

[Goliath 94]

Just throwing an idea out here, what about V6 shafts? I know the wheel bearing end will fit, but the CV is BIG and needs a tiny modification to the hub so it fits in. I don't know if the diff end will fit a BE box, I suspect not as the V6 box is a ML, but there might be a simple solution.

 

If they do fit then they should do the trick, how much power are you running? Mine will handle full throttle starts in first on 888's running roughly 200bhp and 200lb/ft

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

I sent a prop off to reco-prop last week, whilst looking on their site I noticed they say they can make super duper heavy duty fwd shafts, may be worth giving them a call? They're very helpful and seem to know their eggs.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

I have been through some pain in this area, like Tom says. I've had two sets of shafts from a place that purports to make custom shafts from brand new parts (309 spec). The first were the wrong length and shattered an inner CV after all of about 120 miles (20 miles competitive). The second set sheared on a friction weld in the middle of the outer shaft (twice - both the same), despite me quering it as a weak spot and being told "you'll never shear it at a friction weld mate". Yeah right. I have lost all faith now with that line.

 

I'm trying Mr.Satchell's shafts next.

Edited October 25, 2013 by brumster

[Tom Fenton 1,525]

So to summarise what I've found out

 

1) Length - lots of the recon stuff is simply the wrong length, especially if you've changed geometry in a way that moves the hub inwards. I now ALWAYS check the compressed length of the shafts- I've found 20mm difference.

The 306/Xsara shafts (tubular) are too long for a typical 205 by 30mm and require shortening. A 309 shaft bar is 10mm longer than a 205 shaft bar.

 

2) CV joints - the inner CV's are always a Tripode type and generally last well as long as you don't bottom them out due to point (1) above. Bottom them out and the forces have to go somewhere. Outer CV joints there are two types, the ones as per Phills picture above which use a tripode style joint with a large integral boss onto the shaft bar, then there are a Rzeppa type 6-ball joint which is splined onto the end of the shaft bar and can be replaced.

The tripode ones are usually found on 1.9's that have got the factory shafts that have never been replaced. I have had issues with these in the past and don't use them on anything used for track etc work.

The Rzeppa type in my experience are much better and pretty strong, I've never broken one. Also they can be replaced if they get worn quite cheaply.

The spline size on the 306/Xsara shaft bar is ever so slightly larger than the 205/309 so the Rzeppa joints are different between 306/Xsara and 205/309, the pitch at which the balls ruin in the 306/Xsara joints is slightly larger (maybe 5mm off the top) so they are slightly stronger but not a lot in it really.

 

3) Shaft bars, as Dan says a few folk have now broken shafts on the friction weld on "new"/recon shafts. If possible use old stock/used shaft bars which have proved themselves over time.

 

I've got a Xsara shaft which I've shortened and made a spigot ready to press it back together to keep it concentric and then weld it up. Thats my next thing to try as 306/Xsara shafts can be bought for not much dosh. However at the moment I've got 3 sets of shafts which I've built up from bits and hopefully are good.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Echo that. Even people in the business of reman'ing props completely misunderstand the lengths of a 309 shaft over a 205. Do not take it as read that a 309 shaft you get is actually the correct 309 spec length-wise. Ultimately, measure your plunge.

 

If anyone thinks I was giving them the beans at the time, you can watch this vid and at the very end see how the first one snapped.... just hit a bump/pothole and that was it, tickling it in 4th

 

http://youtu.be/Rgcfzpqi4vE?t=6m

[Tom Fenton 1,525]

I broke one at Curborough doing an emergency start, wheel dropped into a pothole and the shock load broke the shaft clean in the middle.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

That's pretty much exactly the chain of events here too, albeit I wasn't on a 1st gear start when it went.

 

edit: What frustrates me is there should be NO NEED for any special driveshafts here. I have been using standard, Pug-origial, brand new 309 shafts since day one, given them abuse far worse than this, and never ONCE had a shaft go on me in 11 years of rallying. Until the last few years where the part is discontinued and we now have to resort to 'recons' or 'one-off specials'.

 

If pug could make me a shaft for a smidgen over £100 that did the job, I don't see why I have to spend £800 with GKN or whoever to make me something made of unobtainium.

Edited October 25, 2013 by brumster

[pip470 61]

Thanks very much to all the contributors, Im going to strip the 306 ones and give them a go first. I will keep the thread posted with pictures. The only thing that would be good to clarify is the procedure you use to check your plunge. Do you take your spring of your shock and go through the whole range of movement to make sure it doesnt bottom out come out of the cup which is what I think happened to mine? Or is it much simpler? Many thanks again.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Do the two extremes - the closest (ie. car level) and the furthest (I do full droop, ie. jack the car up and the wheel dropped fully down). Not exactly clinical but my theory is that's the shaft at it's fully closed and fully extended. I've always worked to the figures of no less than 6mm and no more than 20mm, but admittedly these figures were purely the advise I received from Andy Baker at AB Motorsport. The worst one is the extended obviously.

Edited October 27, 2013 by brumster

[Tom Fenton 1,525]

There are two scenarios really, shaft too long and bottoms on full bump, shaft too short and comes out of inner cup on full droop/lock

 

The way i do it, too long; install shaft, leave outer cv nut off. Jack susp arm up against spring as far as you can get. Then check movement of outer cv joint in and out- should be able to push it in which is compressing plunge in inner joint. If its solid then its binding up.

 

Too short, susp at full droop and lock, pop inner cv boot off and check that the spherical rolls are not hanging out of the inner joint cup.

[Rippthrough 98]

Check it at full lock too.

[pip470 61]

Ah ok, i will try to take some pics of this step when im fitting them. Took my 309 shaft apart and my 306 shaft apart and its quite clear the differences. I need to do a 205 shaft too. This is the long shaft.

[Tom Fenton 1,525]

You are measuring the wrong bit. The inner shaft is the same regardless as the engine/box dictates that length. It's the outer shaft part you need I measure.

[pip470 61]

Yeah ive measured that bit too on the bearing picture. I forgot i took a 309 shaft apart though so i still havnet got the info i need. Also i take it you need the fully compressed length of the full shaft.

[mollisk 2 1 Cars]

Further to the information above, I have done the following on my rally car.

 

I have fitted negative camber uprights from Pugham to give the camber that I require ( -1.5 deg ), this means that I can use standard 205 shafts. I have used secondhand Peugeot shafts and fitted new C.V. joints ( Ex 306 ) The inboard joint on the short shaft is also ex 306 to suit the diff. I have also machined a circlip groove in the inboard end of the shaft to retain the tripod bearing assembly to make it easier to strip down. In addition the shaft are marked down the length to, hopefully, show up any twisting before they break. As mentioned above the plunge was checked and found to be within spec. ( Prior to fitting the negative camber uprights I had to fit a spacer between the outer CV joint and the bearing on the upright )

These shaft have completed several tarmac rally's so far. ( 155ftlb torque engine and soft / super soft tyres)

 

mollisk