Some Engine Troubles

[Robbiedundy 58 4 Cars]

So I've just replaced my 1992 B6D 1.6 gti engine with unknown D6B 1.9 gti engine, and I'm having a couple problems, when I tried to start it at first it wasn't fueling at all so I wired a battery straight to the fuel pump and it started up after a couple attempts but cut out straight away, if you don't keep the revs up for at least 2 mins or so it will cut out. Left it for the night and came back to it today to try and get the fuelling sorted, it's not getting any power at all to the pump so I changed the ecu to the 1.9 one, nothing changed, changed the relay next to the ecu for a known working one, still nothing.. So I wire it to the battery again and now it won't start at all! I know it's probably been covered before but I'm not clued up with all the bits of the engine/wiring and where everything is so if you could explain any solutions I can try in a way a complete noob could understand id be very grateful

 

Thanks,

Robbie.

[dcc 855]

You need to fit all the 1.9 gear to get the engine running properly. Ecu. Injectors. Afm. Distributor. It wont idle due to likely bad ignition timing as well as icv issues. It also most likely needs looking at by somebody who can read a haynes manual.

[Robbiedundy 58 4 Cars]

I've changed all of the above but I'm not sure if it actually is 1.9 stuff, the injectors definitely are but the rest idk, when I bought the car I took the engine out off the idle issues were there, the guy had swapped the cars original 1.6 gti engine to the one I have now, I'm not sure if he changed the ecu, afm & distributor but the injectors are definitely 1.9s, how can I identify them? What's icv? I've just been out trying to get it to fuel, checked the wires from pump to relay and they're fine, the relay should be fine, I've got two which both worked before I took the cars apart, surely they can't both have broken, so I'm thinking it's the ecu not letting the power to the fuel pump unless anyone knows of any other things that can go wrong?

 

Thanks

[roccorich 16]

You can tell from the part numbers. I checked mine after I got it as its had a 1.9 conversion too

Just search for 205 gti AFM part number on google and same for ecu and coil.

Edited October 19, 2013 by roccorich

[Robbiedundy 58 4 Cars]

Alright thanks, it could be the coil? On the 1.6 engibe it has the coil ontop of the inlet and the 1.9 the coil was mounted on the bulk head, so I swapped the inlet from the 1.6 to the 1.9 to save changing wires etc

[DamirGTI 327]

Does it blow fuel pump fuse ?

 

Actually , it's the relay (tachymetric relay) which sends and cuts power to the fuel pump , not the ECU .

 

Also , if you've been rewiring inlet manifold mounted coil to wing mounted - check that the coil isn't wired up backwards , for the tachymetric relay to function properly (it sends power to entire EFI system) you must have thick green wire No. 112A connected on the coil negative terminal .

 

D

Edited October 19, 2013 by DamirGTI

[Robbiedundy 58 4 Cars]

No the fuse is fine, so the ecu has nothing to do with my problem then? Is there anything else that can cut power to the pump besides the relay? I'll order a new one to make sure. Could the 1.6 coil have anything to do with it being a 1.9 engine?

[DamirGTI 327]

ECU - no .

 

Besides tachy relay , it can be either fuse or wiring/connector problem or the fuel pump itself .

 

Coils are the same and interchangeable 1.6 to 1.9 and vice verse , just check the wiring on the coil as the tachy relay relies on the signal from the coil negative terminal (after being energized by the power feed from the starter motor) to close the contacts and thus sends power to the injectors AFM fuel pump etc. once you start cranking the engine .

 

D

[Robbiedundy 58 4 Cars]

Alright I'll check the coil wires tomorrow and the fuse again, when you say starter motor, does it work on the ignition or do I have to try and start the engine?

 

Thanks Damir you've been really helpful

[DamirGTI 327]

When you switch the key to ON position , the relay will energize trough the starter motor positive supply and it'll prime the system for a few seconds , then by cranking the engine it'll use pulse signal from the coil negative terminal to fully close relay contacts and send power to fueling system/system components .

 

http://www.205gtidrivers.com/articles.html/_/articles-guides/what-is-the-tachymetric-relay-r98

 

D

[roccorich 16]

Mine never primes...

[DamirGTI 327]

True , some do some don't , depends on the tachy relay brand

 

D

[roccorich 16]

Thats ok then. Thought something was wrong.

[Robbiedundy 58 4 Cars]

Right so the fuel pump is still not getting power, fuse is fine, coil wiring is fine I think, wires between relay and pump are fine, everything I'm using is 1.9 stuff apart from the coil (checked part numbers), so I'm thinking even though both relays were working before they both must've broken, so I'm going to buy a new one, other than that I've got no idea what else to check. I was looking round the engine bay for loose wires or anything untoward and I've found a blue plug -

And this thing bolted to the strut mount with a loose earth wire coming out the bottom?

[DamirGTI 327]

If the relay worked before the engine swap , i don't see the reason for it to be bad ..

 

Blue connector (ECU temp. sensor) , it is a bit cracked , but should work as the terminals/pins inside looks fine .. just make sure that the wiring on the other side of the connector aren't pushed out when connected (peel of the rubber boot of the connector) and when plugged in that the clip holds connector on the sensor securely .

 

Last pic , that one is a ignition amplifier , wire with the single spade terminal near it is for some diagnostic purposes (used for testing in the past @ the Peugeot garages) , so that's fine as it is no need to be connected .

 

I'd first suggest careful visual wiring check - look for missing earths , positives/live wires , connectors (brown multi plugs) and stuff like that which might been left forgotten or broken during the loom disconnecting/connecting back again .

 

If all seems fine , take the multimeter and do some checks :

 

Check if you have power at the ignition coil with ignition ON .

 

Check the relay connector terminals :

 

Pin 30 - must have voltage permanently , with and without ignition switched ON/OFF

Pin 15 - must have battery voltage (or near the battery voltage) with the ignition ON

Pin 50 - must have battery voltage (or near the battery voltage) while cranking the engine

Pin 31 - earth , check for continuity by placing other multimeter probe on the body or the battery negative terminal

Pin 87 - battery voltage while cranking

Pin 87b - also , battery voltage while cranking

 

If all the checks turned up to be fine (presumably that the relay is good as well) , i'd disconnect all engine the loom - check it again while disconnected - and re-connect back up . There really isn't much of the wiring for the engine so this shouldn't be a problematic/time consuming job .

 

D

[DamirGTI 327]

Did you have any electric problems before the engine swap or any kind of problems with running previous engine ?

 

D

[Robbiedundy 58 4 Cars]

Where does the ecu temp sensor get plugged on to? yeah, gonna unplug everything and plug it back in, see if that makes any difference if not I'm hoping a new relay will fix it.. Erm the original 1.6 engine from this car wasn't running when I bought it and the previous owner says everything was fine apart from the engine, the 1.9 gti engine I have in it now had problems when I bought the car with that in, if you didn't keep the revs up for about 2 mins or so when you first start it it will cut out, if you let it cut out it wont start straight away again by the key, so it had a push start button wired straight to the starter motor. I'm too tired to do anything tonight, still not used to these long hours g'night..

[welshpug 1,626]

on the side or rear of the thermostat housing, blue sensor.

 

that will not help matters as the ecu will just throw a ton of fuel in, however it will not prevent spark.

[roccorich 16]

When my starter motor stopped working the day after I bought my car I was bumping it all day fine. Then had a poke around looking for the brown multiplug to check the solenoid wiring. Next time I tried to bump it it was flooding and not firing at all.

 

Found I had knocked two plugs apart as the clips broken, down at the back of the engine bay on the right hand side. Off the top of my head one was cream coloured I think.

 

Not sure exactly what it is for but after I reconnected it it bumped fine again. I'll get a photo of it tomorrow for you so you can check tbe condition of yours as whatever it is is for is important.

[DamirGTI 327]

Brown multi plugs diagram :

 

 

 

D

[DamirGTI 327]

if you didn't keep the revs up for about 2 mins or so when you first start it it will cut out, if you let it cut out it wont start straight away again by the key, so it had a push start button wired straight to the starter motor.

 

Interesting .. cutting out can be caused by fair few stuff , both fueling and ignition components - AFM , ignition amplifier , coil etc.

When fitting this the 1.9 engine , did you retain engine management/ignition stuff from the previous 1.6 engine or you've replaced them with another units to go along with the 1.9 engine ?

 

It doesn't matter much if you have complete 1.6 engine management/ignition stuff plugged on the 1.9 engine , or opposite , but if started mixing components say ; AFM from 1.6 engine , ECU from 1.9 , injectors from 1.6 on 1.9 engine , 1.6 dizzy on 1.9 engine that'll be hard to pair it all together to make the engine run good @ idle and off idle .

But no mater , even if mixing sensors/units that shouldn't be the root of the problem with the - system unable to trigger fueling while cranking .

 

Still has this "push start button" ? .. did it possibly had an immobilizer fitted before ?

Could be ignition barrel problem also .. which was the reason for fitting said "push start button" .

 

D

[Robbiedundy 58 4 Cars]

Yeah everything is 1.9 besides the coil, I plugged that blue plug in and it started working, it's not idling 100% but it's a lot better than it was when I got it, need to see what it's like when it's cold though. Thanks for all the help guys

[Robbiedundy 58 4 Cars]

Yeah it did have an immobiliser before

[DamirGTI 327]

Coils are the same on both the 1.6 and 1.9 , so that's fine .

 

Nice to hear that it's sprung to life

 

D