Inlet+Tb Setup For 205

[stefan 4]

Isn't this nice?! Surely it would fit under the 205's bonnet?!

 

 

It's from a Peugeot afterall, ain't it?!

[Baz 421]

Single TB?

[stefan 4]

Yes, 407 DTC/WTCC

[MiniGibbo 142]

hit the slam panel surely..?

[Josh_Quant 27]

TB doesn't look very big?

 

It would but you would have to make another plenum up

[welshpug 1,631]

single 60mm iirc, smaller than std gti6 but still 100+bhp up, similar to s2000 rally cars

[stefan 4]

http://www.jenvey.co.uk/home/large-single-throttle-body/jenvey-dynamics/etcc-64mm-t-body-sfge1-64

 

and 285-290 HP

[petert 558]

A friend has just had his Mi16 engine rebuilt by a pro race engine builder in Adelaide. It features a custom plenum chamber manifold with a single throttle. Looking forward to seeing results.

[stefan 4]

The 207 S2000 has a similar setup, only the TB is taken away to the side, probably because there is less space than in the 407.

 

http://www.rallycars...os/p57272n5.jpg

 

 

Amazing how they make that kind of power, despite the limitations of the single 64mm TB, imposed by the regulations.

Edited June 5, 2012 by stefan

[petert 558]

At WOT it's no different to ITB's at WOT, if diameters and runner lengths are the same.

[Sandy 191]

Sorry to disagree with you again Peter and I promise it's not personal! But open breathing ITBs vs boxed ITBs or a plenum/single throttle, do not perform the same, the acoustic effects are quite different in each case and it's alot easier to get a broad curve with open ITBs vs plenum or boxed ITBs in my experience at WOT. Plenums tend to produce a very narrow response. The part throttle behaviour also greatly affects overall performance and should not be discounted.

 

Getting the "S2000" engines to produce the claimed results (which are often spurious BTW, I know from people inside), take massive development and is a cul-de-sac created by regs ironically intended to reduce costs, but end up just shifting the costs to another part of the books.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Sandy

[MiniGibbo 142]

Open bodies ftl...

 

Sucking in all that s*it from the road just makes me cringe.

[Sandy 191]

?!! Open as in not boxed down to a neck filter, not as in un-filtered.

[camgti 56]

Sandy, are you saying these applications are better suited to a car that spends most of its life in a small power band higher in the revs?

 

Ive noticed you tend to ( Perhaps always ) never use a plenum and just have the trumpets in behind an ITG filter. Im in the process of research regarding plenum vs open and as you have stated, there seems to be lots of good evidence towards having a more open style like yours. My problem, is here in OZ we are unable to have an open filter on a road car ( as mine will be ) and so Im trying to figure out the best solution. SO far a flat panel filter and plenum behind the grill seems to be the best, with the bodies ( trumpets ) not to far behind that in a enclosed box ( the plenum? ), although the filter takes up one side ( front wall as such ) of the plenum and Im hoping this will lower some of the acoustics your talking about. Follow that?

 

Cam

[petert 558]

Whilst as you say it's easy to get good results with ITB's, at the pointy end of the development spectrum, plenum chambers are used eg V8 Supercars. Perhaps it's a function of research dollar R&D?

[camgti 56]

There making almost 700hp now arent they Pete? 5.0L? 7500RPM Limit still?

 

Cam

[MiniGibbo 142]

M3's have itb's with a plenum..

[welshpug 1,631]

M3's have itb's with a plenum..

 

most M cars do, as do many Nissan GTR's, but thats more a case of packaging and noise reduction, and of course the latter being boosted.

[petert 558]

There making almost 700hp now arent they Pete? 5.0L? 7500RPM Limit still?

 

Around 650hp I believe, from 10:1, 5000cc and 7500rpm.

 

I have a set of TB's from an R32 GTR. They're quite nice.

Edited June 6, 2012 by petert

[Sandy 191]

The single TB plenums shown on the touring cars are to comply with regs that force the use of a control single throttle body, same applies to Super 1600 rally cars etc. When the regs were free, they all ran ITBs, usually with airboxes that had big 4th wall filters, effectively making them "Open".

In production cars, using a single TB greatly simplifies the setting up process on the line and allows resonators to be used to tune the inlet tract and trunking to get the desired noise levels and avoid harshness. BMW's M-cars are pretty much the only production cars that use ITBs and they boxed inlets in some cases to use an AFM and to control the air source/route and noise. The CSL uses a very large filter that goes a long way to making the induction open, giving the benefits that brings, the compromise is the noise; but enthusiasts of course praise the noise!

There's often alot of confusion created when people reference what's being used in highly regulated championships. We very often don't know all the facts or the logic behind what's been used. Also it's wrong to assume that the manufacturers badged products were the best they can be. Most BTCC engines ar built by specialist companies that have limitations of ideas and testing just like anyone; we've seen and tested several "Works" spec Vauxhall, Peugeot, Ford and BMW engines, that usually make good numbers at the top, but don't come close to the breadth of usable rpm and manners that we achieve from our engines and have much shorter service life.

 

I can't comment on V8 tuning much, I've very little experience of it, but I would expect packaging is a major factor in the inlet designs that can be used and again maybe regs.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Sandy

[camgti 56]

Thanks for the info Sandy. Makes sense to me.

 

Cam

[MiniGibbo 142]

Yeah the CSL airbox has a big panel filter and from what I've read is one of the only carbon plenums to give actual power gains over the oem plenum.

 

Just a shame they're £4500 second hand

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I was going to speculate, that as F1 engines IIRC typically use ITBs, and as package sizes - not limited in F1 by bonnets, but having some vertical space to use - was the only genuine reason why the V8s referred to here use a plenum and single ITB.

 

Going out on a limb, surely most engine developers, if no restrictions/rules were in force, would go for ITBs every time?

 

And it's also perhaps considerably more complicated to have an ITB set-up on a 'V' engine, with double banks of cylinders needing quite complicated linkages and fuel connectivity, making a single TB and plenum the most pragmatic (easiest) overall solution.

[petert 558]

Possibly bonnet height restriction. The carbon fibre trumpets lay at an angle, criss-crossing each other, in order to both obtain the correct length and keep the port flow as straight as possible.

Edited June 8, 2012 by petert

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Hi Pete:

 

And how did the above pictured engine compare with as similar as possible engine with a plenum and single TB?