Ethonal In Fuel

[Rob_the_Sparky 10]

From what I'm reading on piston heads the ethonal percentage in fuel is planned to rise and there are potential issue with this and older cars, including the 205. Just thought I'd add a link on here so people are aware...

[jackherer 543]

I think they're scaremongering a bit by likening it to unleaded fuel, the problems caused by lack of lead required new valve seats in (some) cars but from what I can tell the worst case scenario for ethanol is a requirement for new fuel pipes. I've had them split and leak due to age so changing them is probably a good idea for most 205s anyway.

[swordfish210 20]

from what I can tell the worst case scenario for ethanol is a requirement for new fuel pipes. I've had them split and leak due to age so changing them is probably a good idea for most 205s anyway.

 

Pretty much bang on for the mixture percentages they're talking about, that and the slight drop in power. When you're using high Ethanol quantities such as E85 or E100 you will get the problems like bore wash due to the amount you have to stick in to get the same sort of energy as petrol.

[Anthony 1,003]

Isn't more the issue internal seals/parts in things like the fuel pump, FPR and injectors? Fuel hoses as you say aren't an issue, the hard fuel lines shouldn't be, nor should the fuel rail itself, which just leaves the plastic tank.

 

I suspect that it's certainly being made out as more of an issue than it really will be - certainly I find it difficult to believe that they will replace regular unleaded with this new higher ethanol content blend if, as the article suggests, cars as young as 5 years old and many bikes even newer than that really are incompatible.

 

I vaguely recall a similar amount of worry about LRP petrol when 4 star was phased out, but I don't subsequently recall much real world evidence of it causing significant problems - although of course, many (most) of the cars that affected were likely to be classics which isn't the case with this

 

Given that I'm sure plenty of people have used this fuel in other countries where it's available alongside regular unleaded, I wonder if there have been any real world problems? If it's 10% odd cheaper as suggested by a couple of posters on PH, I would fully expect lots of people with older cars to have been using it regardless.

[kyepan 291]

Other PH favourites like pre-2002 MX-5's and icons such as the Peugeot 205 GTI will also not be able to use the E10 fuel.

 

bugger... time to buy a classic porka then..

 

While many brands, BMW among them, have declared their entire petrol engine ranges fine for E10 there are some exceptions, including 993 (and earlier) Porsche 911s.

 

Doh.

[swordfish210 20]

Well we're all currently using about E2-5 every time we fill up. With E10 it's going to be more of the case that it will increase the degradation of the rubber but it's certainly not going to completely kill it every weekend, more like it will knock 1,000 or so miles off of the service life.

[jackherer 543]

According to this link all Peugeots from 1998 onwards are OK for E10 apart from all XU engined 306s! There can't be much difference in the fuel systems of TU and XU 306s, injector seals maybe? The same page states that Citroens from 1998 are OK too but doesn't have an exception for the xsara so either its an oversight or my VTS has different injector seals (or something) than a 306 GTI6...

[dcc 855]

P2 xsaras ran different injectors. not sure what year that would be

[Anthony 1,003]

P2 xsaras ran different injectors. not sure what year that would be

2001 onwards.

[feb 47]

I am with jackherer on this. The media always like to make things more dramatic than they are.

 

What will happen is that the price of 95RON will go up as it has happened in Germany when E10 was widely introduced last year.

 

95RON is still available, E10 has not replaced it.

 

What has happened is that E10's price became equal to the price of 95RON at the time and 95RON went up by almost 10 cents.

 

As already mentioned it is allowed by law for unleaded fuels to have up to 5% content of bioethanol, in fact V-power racing (100RON) pumps clearly mention this in Germany.

 

For what it's worth, my friend's friend has been using E85 which contains 85% bioethanol in his mkI 1987 Suzuki Swift Gti for 2-3 years without any problems whatsoever.

He was using it without even having changed the injectors! It only had a chip, FPR at 7 bar and a bigger fuel pump. Ignition advance from the distributor taken to the maximum possible. Different cams and 13:1 CR.

 

According to my friend it would have around 170bhp and was going like crazy.

Of course it would have been better to change the injectors with bigger ones and have a reprogrammable ECU.

 

With the original head and 12:1 CR he was using 100% E85 in the summer and 50% in winter.

He has sold the car now so I can't tell what's happened from that point onwards.

 

I really don't see how 5% would cause any problems as that's what most higher octane (>98) fuels have in Germany.

 

List of cars and E10 compatibility: http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/tanken-kraftstoffe-und-antrieb/benzin-und-diesel/e10/default.aspx

 

This article below contradicts what's mentioned in the article linked by jackherer above.

 

http://www.peugeot.de/ueber_peugeot/aktuelles/?artikel=35

 

Google translation:

"PEUGEOT gives green light for E10

All Peugeot gasoline from 2000 to tolerate the new bio-fuel

- Trouble with increased use of fuel ethanol content

- Another step to reduce CO2 emissions

- Field experiences in France consistently positive

 

Peugeot welcomes the widespread introduction of the new biofuel E10 as a further step towards low-emission driving. All Peugeot gasoline engine, which were built since production date 01/01/2000 can be operated fully with the new E10 fuel, provided it meets the standard E DIN 51626-1. Thus most of the Peugeot-stock in Germany is E10 compatible.

 

Field experiences in France, where E10 fuel has been used since 2009, show that the use of the gasoline from the production of PEUGEOT 2000, no problem. PEUGEOT recommends that owners of vehicles manufactured before 01.01.2000, the use of fuel with an ethanol content of five percent. These types of gasoline at the pump continue to remain in the offer. If in doubt, one can contact the PEUGEOT customer service ( www.peugeot.de / contact ).

 

By the will of the federal government since the new biofuel is January 2011 for petrol stations available nationwide. E10 consists of 90 percent conventional gasoline and ten percent bioethanol. The renewable biomass-derived ethanol helps reduce carbon dioxide emissions of vehicles even further. Considered holistically, bioethanol is CO2 neutral. The liberated during combustion CO2 was bound by the plant during the growth phase is already in equal parts."

 

I always use 98RON in Germany although not all pumps mention the bioethanol content IIRC.

 

I have done 3,000 miles in the car without problems so if you guys are worried I will be the guinea pig

 

Using 98RON which *I think* contains 5% bioethanol the AFRs seem fine.

 

I used a 25% E85 mix a few weeks ago for experimentation and I had to enrichen the mix by 9% for the AFRs to remain the same as before. I was reaching the limit of the injectors though as I had about 92% duty cycle on 5th and around 6,800 rpm.

 

I *think* the car was pulling more eagerly at high rpm but it could be placebo effect.

 

I guess our fellow german forum members also use 98RON, it is probably worth bringing this thread to their attention.

 

P.S. I should go and shop for a fuel pump just in case (touches wood)!

Edited December 20, 2011 by feb