Timing And Tuning

[BlueBolt 156]

Some who may have read some of my other threads will know that I'm mid upgrade of the head on my 19Miami, but I'm calling it "mid upgrade" due to it still not running!!

 

I'm of the sound opinion now that I'm taking her into a shop, getting them to time it, and then tune it on rollers for me!!

 

Before this, I've got a few jobs to get done, which will give me the time to save up a "few" pennies to pay for the work...

(New heater controls, uprated injectors, blue hose kit, 4-pots and a couple of other things on a ToDo list a mile long)

 

What I wanted to know is...

 

Does anyone have a local garage/tune shop that they can recommend to me??

 

I'm Nr Maidstone in Kent, and have access to a trailer which means I can get to most places...

I've been in touch with a few to get a rough idea of costs, but I need to know if anyone has any experience with any shops that they can share with me...

 

Been in touch with AT Speed in Essex, who want to put an aftermarket ecu in (not got the money for that!!)

Been in touch with RedLine in Essex who are well up for the job and have said they're happy to help

 

Just wondered if anyone would guide me to get in touch with anyone else before spending a big wedge of notes??

[ORB 227 1 Cars]

Updated injectors?

[welshpug 1,626]

As its on standard 8 valve management you haven't a hope in hell of getting that to run properly, which I would imagine as ATspeed's reasoning behind wanting to sell you an aftermarket ecu, apart from making money

 

you really do need throttle bodies with that wild an engine spec as the design of the manifold doesn't lend itself too well to massively lumpy cams, I have run a much milder gravel rally cam and it was pretty bad.

[Anthony 1,000]

If you can't even get it to start then it's going to be something basic.

 

As Welshpug says, an engine of that spec on a standard plenum and Jetronic management is never going to be ideal - the plenum will make idle and low revs pretty ugly, the AFM will compound matters by flapping around like a barn door in a gale with the cylinder pulses, and the dizzy advance curve is liable to be ill-suited to 11:1 odd compression.

 

It should start though, even if it refuses to idle. If it's not even starting, check over absolutely everything as that's all any professional is going to do.

 

Oh, and if you're retaining a standard ECU, keep the standard injectors - "uprated" (by which I'm assuming higher flowing) injectors and a standard ECU is a recipe for overfuelling and an engine that'll never run right. Jetronic is extremely crude remember with no form of feedback - it's pretty much just a case of the AFM being open x amount means hold the injectors open for y amount of time, and hence needs to have matching ECU. AFM, and injectors to stand any chance of fuelling correctly.

 

Personally, I think that you've made a mistake buying what you have if you've not got the budget to get everything else needed to make it work properly. At the very least I'd put a milder cam in it so that you've got a chance of it working properly on Jetronic and a plenum, and a recurved dizzy from someone like H&H would get around the ill-suited advance curve for the amount of compression.

[BlueBolt 156]

Updated injectors?

 

*Uprated... Sorry, typing too quickly for my brain lol

 

As its on standard 8 valve management you haven't a hope in hell of getting that to run properly

 

Hmmm... I had a horrible feeling someone was going to tell me that!!! But why?? Surely if I were to upgrade the injectors for something like the gti6 one's, and get it tuned in then it would run??

 

Guess the spending budget needs to be slightly larger than it currently is???

 

So, other than the obvious brands of after market ecu that people know of, are there any that I should really really avoid like the plague??

I've seen that there are lots of management systems available that aren't the usual Omex that are quite a bit cheaper....???

Edited November 13, 2011 by BlueBolt

[dcc 855]

you can pick up a cheap enough kms or dta or emerald or omex... loom is circa 150-300, mapping 300, so youre looking at 1000 all in. but you wont get any better result for less.

[BlueBolt 156]

Personally, I think that you've made a mistake buying what you have if you've not got the budget to get everything else needed to make it work properly.

 

I'm unfortunately one of those stupid people who believe what I read and what sellers tell me about it being able to run on standard ecu's and such... The Piper site says to uprate the injectors which is why I was thinking along those lines...

I've got about 6 months till I need to have the car back on the road and running so I guess this gives me the time to try and find the other bits I need...

I know that it will be very lumpy on idle, this isn't a problem so much...

 

What about the ecu makes to look out for that aren't the same price as Omex (priced for name it would seem sometimes??)??

[BlueBolt 156]

you can pick up a cheap enough kms or dta or emerald or omex... loom is circa 150-300, mapping 300, so youre looking at 1000 all in. but you wont get any better result for less.

 

Yea that's no problem... The engine id going to need to be timed in at the same time so am thinking it will be more than that!!

I'm going to have to keep my eyes open on the for sale section and see what I can find and how much I can save in the mean time too...

[Anthony 1,000]

What about the ecu makes to look out for that aren't the same price as Omex (priced for name it would seem sometimes??)??

Cheap ECU's can be a false economy, so choose carefully!

 

Personally, I would stick with Omex, DTA, and Emerald as they're all well known, proven and most mappers will know them well. Be careful as there are some very old versions out there which will be a headache.

 

I would personally avoid Megasquirt, KMS, and Weber Alpha, all for different reasons.

 

Really, you need to choose an ECU with getting it mapped in mind - no point choosing an ECU that no one will map. Near(ish) you there's Track and Road in Rainham, Essex who are well respected and will map most things I believe but are primarily DTA.

 

However, there's no point even looking down that route for a moment - whatever is stopping the engine starting isn't the need for an aftermarket ECU. Check the cam timing, check compression, check for a strong spark and the ignition timing being in the right ballpark, and after that it can only be fuelling related.

[BlueBolt 156]

As mentioned before, I know the timing is miles out...

 

The cam timing and the dizzy are out!!

 

I know there's a good strong spark, and I intend to take the AFM apart this week at some point to check it over and make sure it's all working well and as it should be.

 

I'm not good with timing... I can pull an engine apart and put it back together, but the timing side of things I haven't got a clue what to do or where to start...

I've had a couple of people come to give me a hand with it, but they've mainly gone through and checked that it is all happening as it should, not when it should if you know what I mean??

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

As said the injector thing is new to me if Piper do say that, maybe they should add a Remap or re-tune if using Carb's,

Fitting 6 injectors on a Motronic Mi does not work either so a old Forum member found out,

 

Not knowing the spec of the engine, How have you timed it?

 

Another vote to give Megasquirt, KMS, and Weber Alpha a miss along with Emerald now but this is only because mapping takes longer as it's not live.

 

Don;t forget cylinder 1 is at the flywheel end and as I found out the other day I had a Dizzy converter machined wrong so it was 180 degree's out

[Anthony 1,000]

Miles - head/cam spec from his other thread...

 

I was then looking through ebay and found a nice new head that I wanted!!

Well, new to me at least!!

 

The specs of this were::

 

"Built by Puma Racing (Dave Baker)

Fully ported

New inlet and exhaust valve seats

New 42.5mm inlet valves

Piper cam P16BP300 2800-7500 range duration inl 304deg exh 34 deg

Inlet and exhaust lift 12.9mm (supplied by Brett sims)

New double valve springs

New valve guides

new seals throughout

Head comp ratio 11:1"

[Anthony 1,000]

I'm unfortunately one of those stupid people who believe what I read and what sellers tell me about it being able to run on standard ecu's and such... The Piper site says to uprate the injectors which is why I was thinking along those lines...

Firstly, for your own sake, always treat anything written / said by someone trying to sell you something with a healthy amount of cynicism.

 

Secondly, the injectors thing bemused me enough to go and look the cam up on the Piper website as it just didn't ring true somehow. There's no comments listed against the P16BP300 cam that you have from what I can see, but the cam below it in the range - the P16BP285 - says "Not recommended for use with std injection. Phenomenal power when used with 2 x 45 dcoe's"

 

Clicky

 

You didn't misread that as "Not recommended for use with standard injectors" did you and read it thinking that it was for the cam that you've got?

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

That one, You could use almost a std timing set up just to get it running as the cam's quite mild (Well for me)

 

The Comp ratio, is that with std or other pistons?

[BlueBolt 156]

That one, You could use almost a std timing set up just to get it running as the cam's quite mild (Well for me)

 

The Comp ratio, is that with std or other pistons?

 

This is all with a standard bottom end, standard pistons etc... I have intentions of rebuilding an engine to put this head onto at some point in the future with bodies and turbo's in mind for a few years down the line... However, one thing at a time as I need to get this one running...

 

Ur mentioning of pistons has just made alarm bells ring in my ears.....!!!????

 

 

Thank you all for the ecu advice, I'm searching about now for a reasonably priced unit, will have to see how things go this side of Christmas and see also what I can find

[james_pug 26 1 Cars]

What about carbs? A place near sittingbourne are meant to be good think there bda or something, been meaning to take my dimma there for the last couple of years but never got round to it.

[BlueBolt 156]

What about carbs? A place near sittingbourne are meant to be good think there bda or something, been meaning to take my dimma there for the last couple of years but never got round to it.

 

 

Yea carbs or bodies are next years plan, doing the aftermarket ecu thing will save me an expense then I guess...

Wouldn't bother with the place in Sittingbourne tho mate, had feedback that they not great, tuned up my mates grass track motor and said they'd got as much as was possible... He took it somewhere 6 months later who got him a further 25 break...

[Anthony 1,000]

If you're going carbs you don't really need a full blown mappable ECU - a recurved dizzy would suffice for ignition, although clearly mapped ignition would be better.

[BlueBolt 156]

If you're going carbs you don't really need a full blown mappable ECU - a recurved dizzy would suffice for ignition, although clearly mapped ignition would be better.

 

Even with the aggressive cam??

 

Had planned carbs or bodies next year, so the management will save me money later but cost me now of you know what I mean??

I have reduce loud plans stretched over a good few years, but more about them in the other threads when I get past this one lol

[Anthony 1,000]

From a fuelling point of view, you either have carbs or you have fuel injection.

 

You only need an ECU for fuel injection.

 

Fuel injection can be in one of two forms - with a plenum manifold (ie what you have now) where there's a single throttle feeding all four cylinders, or individual throttle bodies (usually just shortened to "throttle bodies") which is basically one throttle per cylinder - one of the advantage of which is that with big cams you don't get the pulsing and idle problems that you do with a plenum.

 

I'm not a massive fan of carbs it has to be said, but setup properly they can work quite well, and if you're trying to do this on a budget it's certainly worth considering.

 

Throttle bodies are clearly preferable given the better control of the fuelling that you get with them, but it isn't cheap - you're talking over £2k easily once you've got the ECU, everything you need for the ITB's (it's the little bits like linkages and filters that add up!) and then had it mapped. Carbs, depending on what you can pick up a good used set for will likely be somewhere in the £600-800 mark once they're set up - possibly less if you get lucky.

 

It's hard to say, but I'd say that you'd get better results (and a better soundtrack!) from a set of carbs than you would from mappable management on a standard plenum and costs will be broadly similar once you've factored in the recurved dizzy too.

[BlueBolt 156]

From a fuelling point of view, you either have carbs or you have fuel injection.

 

You only need an ECU for fuel injection.

 

Fuel injection can be in one of two forms - with a plenum manifold (ie what you have now) where there's a single throttle feeding all four cylinders, or individual throttle bodies (usually just shortened to "throttle bodies") which is basically one throttle per cylinder - one of the advantage of which is that with big cams you don't get the pulsing and idle problems that you do with a plenum.

 

I'm not a massive fan of carbs it has to be said, but setup properly they can work quite well, and if you're trying to do this on a budget it's certainly worth considering.

 

Throttle bodies are clearly preferable given the better control of the fuelling that you get with them, but it isn't cheap - you're talking over £2k easily once you've got the ECU, everything you need for the ITB's (it's the little bits like linkages and filters that add up!) and then had it mapped. Carbs, depending on what you can pick up a good used set for will likely be somewhere in the £600-800 mark once they're set up - possibly less if you get lucky.

 

It's hard to say, but I'd say that you'd get better results (and a better soundtrack!) from a set of carbs than you would from mappable management on a standard plenum and costs will be broadly similar once you've factored in the recurved dizzy too.

 

 

That answers a few things for me...!!

 

With the ITB's then I'd surely want the Management too??

I was reading the thread the other week about ITB's from a specific company, but can't remember who they were, thread was to see about interest in a group buy...

 

I want to go down the ITB route (having read ur explanation this is now deffinite) rather than the carbs line for sure!!

 

 

 

Ok, back on to the Management situation...

I've been in touch with Track & Road as mentioned in a previous post on this thread, they'll map me up and have a sparky who can wire it all in for me... Very competitive at about 1500 all in for an Omex600, braided wiring kit and then T&R to map it in...

Then I got in touch with ATSpeed, also Essex, who babbled me a bit and came out with a price somewhere around the 3500 mark!!

£3500 FOR A MANAGEMENT SYSTEM ONLY?????

 

So my next question, is how difficult is it to fit in a management system?? I'm pretty handy when it comes to being tidy and organise with bits and pieces, and confident enough to give it a go and make sure that everything is connected and how it should be!! So in the back of my min I'm kinda asking myself why I'm spending money out on getting someone else fit it if I recon I can do it myself??

Am I kidding myself with this though and it's 100 times more difficult than I'm thinking???

[Anthony 1,000]

As with anything, it's straight forward enough *if* you know what you're doing.

 

By far the most involved part is building the wiring loom, as it will not run on the wiring loom that you have currently. This is critical and really does need to be done properly and to a high standard, otherwise you'll have no end of headaches and problems.

 

With the wiring loom done, it's a case of swapping a couple of sensors (TPS and air temp) and changing the ignition over to a coilpack - you don't strictly speaking have to do this last part, but it seems silly not to do so and to retain the standard single coil and dizzy cap setup.

 

Effectively I did exactly all of this last month on a car that I was building for a member on here, converting it from Jetronic to Emerald, on an 8v engine with the standard plenum inlet manifold - there's a few pictures towards the end of my "Roadspeed Revival" thread, but it's a bit sparse in detail on the actual specifics as it was never intended to be a "how-to" guide.

 

From what I've read of your posts on here, I would personally say that this job is probably a step too far for you at the moment.

 

£1500 doesn't sound too unreasonable at all if that's them taking on the entire job - ie you give them the car as-is now with required parts, and you get back a fully mapped working car with new loom, ECU etc. It's not cheap certainly - I'd estimate about £400-500 of that is labour for doing the work - but then a professional job by a reputable company never is.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

£1500 sounds far too cheap to me, The Bodies, Linkage, Fuel Regulator, ECU, Loom, Relays, Connectors, Wire, Flywheel and poss Clutch kit, Gearbox if not compatible with a TDC sensor as running from the front pulley isn't a nice way to do it, Mapping takes a good few hours unless they just stick a make do map on it

 

Like anything with fitting it depends on your tools etc and if you can read a wiring Diag which is supplied with the kit, But I know my mapper will not except new wired in ECU's (From customers) as they are just allot of trouble even before mapping with the odd exception

[welshpug 1,626]

£1500 sounds like simply fitting and mapping management with no mention of bodies whatsoever, quite likely to be the reason for AT's vastly higher quote.

[Anthony 1,000]

I was assuming that the £1500 was based on it retaining the existing plenum Miles - ie ECU, loom, fitting, getting it running and mapping. Clearly £1500 wouldn't even cover the bodies, ECU and loom - let alone any labour or mapping!

 

Good point about the flywheel though - supply and swap of that won't have been factored in for certain at that price.