Emerald No Spark

[All Praise The GTI 3]

finally got my usb to serial port adapter so could hook up the laptop to the k3. think i loaded up a map right but the damn thing wouldnt start. fairly sure there is no spark.

in not great with electrics any suggestions??

thanks in advance

[Alastairh 47]

Tried checking you have 12V at the coil pack along with a working earth?

 

Al

[All Praise The GTI 3]

which pins do i need to check do you know mate?

il have a look tomorrow as off work. got soo excited earlier thinkin i could finally have her running on bodies then another dissappointment. its never easy nothing ever works 1st time lol

[Anthony 1,000]

Does the ECU have power and see a signal from the crank sensor? The LED on the Emerald ECU case should flicker between red and green when cranking the engine over if it is seeing a crank signal.

 

If that's OK, check whether there is 12v at the coilpack (should be on pin 3 or 4 from memory - one will be the supressor, and the other the feed) and whether you have a spark or not by connecting a loose sparkplug into one of the HT leads and cranking it over. If you have a spark, check that you've got the HT leads around the right way - on the wasted spark coilpack you've got, you might need to swap 1+4 with 2+3 (if will sometimes backfire if they're around the wrong way)

[All Praise The GTI 3]

right checked all my settings. done throttle pot,crank and wasted spark etc. think they all ok.

the light on ecu is red and turns and stays green when its cranking. is this right?

its now sparking but stil wont start,pretty sure its got enough fuel in tank and its getting through i believe.

any other suggestions?

only thing im not sure of is the firing order and plug order on the coilpack stil.(its the simple things i always foget

anyone got a pic of one with which is 1234 and what lead goes on where?

thanks

[All Praise The GTI 3]

anyone???

i really have no idea what else to check. and it needs to be running this week....

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

OK Nat; here goes.

 

You're being fairly vague, and perhaps unnecessarily 'scared' of vehicle electrics.

 

You are saying you are quite sure you have spark. Well you either have or you haven't.

 

Simply pull an HT lead off a plug in the head, attach another sparkplug and rest the plug's thread on some part of the engine. Then crank and see if you're getting a spark. You and us really need to know one way or another.

 

Even if you're getting a spark, we need to know if you're getting fuel. Does the fuel pump prime (can you hear it whine for 1.5 secs when you turn the ignition on)?

 

Pull the fuel rail out with injectors still attached and see if fuel sprays out of all 4 injectors when cranking.

 

If you have no fuel, or no spark, or none of either then it's a no go.

 

Before I go any further to try and help, we need to know exactly what you have got Nat.

 

IF you have got fuel and spark, then it's possible you have the firing order 180deg out. Wasted spark fires cylinders 1+4 then 2+3. One spark out of each pairing fires but does nothing, hence 'wasted' spark. The correct firing order is 1,3,4,2; so you may have spark going to 2+3 when it needs to go to 1+4.

 

Tell us what you really, truly, 100% have. If it's nothing/neither, then we need to check backwards. Your ECU obviously has power, even on cranking, so perhaps you have no signal from the crank angle sensor (CAS).

Edited June 25, 2010 by DrSarty

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

are you getting spark at the correct time?

 

is the cranking angle set correctly? using a std mounted cas in the std place.?

 

im not 100% on emerald but this may help?

 

firing order in pars of 1-4 and 2-3 ,1 being the clutch end of the engine. the coil pack should be numbered for each one.

 

i found i need to earth the body of my coil pack to gain a good enough spark to get it going.

Edited June 25, 2010 by pugpete1108

[All Praise The GTI 3]

hi guys thanks for replys. i did say above i definately have got spark. and think have fueling will check before or after work tommorow.

my coil pack is a brand new 8v turbo one from ecp and has NO markings on it so i dont know which is 1,2,3or4?! and before anyone says it will have iam telling you it doesnt have ANY markings

i have mounted (cough cable tied) it to the strut brace. temporary to keep out the way. would they normally earth through the securing bolts?? maybe my spark isnt strong enough to start it especially as my batt. low.

i know abit about electronics but only a little, im just not confident enoungh to mess about with looms etc and i have no experience with the emerald software. the manual i got with it is only todo with mapping it. although i have found the software fairly straight forward and user friendly so i already have put on a map and set the basics up e.g. set to wasted spark, 60-2 flywheel and set throttle pot. the rest is beyond me.

cas is plugged in standard position

will try again tommorrow....

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Battery needs to be good, You'll see the voltage on your laptop while cranking, too low and it won;t start

[All Praise The GTI 3]

had a look after work and its not squirting any fuel

there is fuel being pumped up tho as rail was full.

using an emerald base map for a 6 on tbs. have got another map for a standard 6 lump on tbs so i could try that one?

im using standard 6 injectors,presume map is for them. or is there something i need to set on ecu for injectors? i thought the map would include that data??

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Got 12v at the injectors?

[All Praise The GTI 3]

il be checking that tomorrow miles....

[All Praise The GTI 3]

been away all week but managed have a look earlier.

with ignition on no power to either pins. with it cranking there is power to both pins on injector wiring??

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

You have something wrong Nat (quite clearly).

 

Injectors are triggered by the ECU by it grounding them. Usually pin 1 (not that it matters) on the injector plug is the 12volt switched live. It should be live when ignition on and on cranking.

 

Simple test with a multimeter, with one end on the negative battery terminal and the other on the pin in the injector plug. It should show ~12v (- or + doesn't matter) when the ignition is anywhere but off. Basically when you put the ignition on it gives the injectors 12v power.

 

The ECU then does the rest as soon as it starts to receive a signal from the CAS, i.e. once you crank the engine. It makes the injectors fire simply by grounding them, either in pairs or altogether.

 

The other pin should show nothing at all, as that is the ECU ground, and therefore will only be a ground when the ECU says so.

 

If you don't have that simple 12v going to the injectors (and it's only a simple 12v switched live), then your car won't be starting anytime soon.

 

****

 

And without looking back, what about your fuel pump? Does it prime? Is it running when cranking?

 

I think you have some strange power set-up going on there Nat. Have a look in my Evo II thread for some clear diagrams of effective wiring set-ups. If you don't believe mine (or want reassurance), then check DTA or Emerald or even Megasquirt's sites, as they are all basically the same.

 

Your injectors should be fused (5A each pair), and your fuel pump should be triggered through a relay controlled (with a ground again) by the ECU.

[All Praise The GTI 3]

fuel pump does prime ok. i tested the wiring with pos. in the injector plug, neg. on the strut top as an earth i guess thats ok?

injectors definately getting fuel as a couple of injectors popped out rail( came out when removed from head and i found a PITA to put back in rail) and fuel sprayed everywhere. i didnt make loom so im unsure really. in conatct with member who made it for me so hopefully will have it sorted soon

off to work for the day now tho

[Alastairh 47]

So your saying you have fuel squirting out the injectors and a good spark? The person who built the loom isn't a novice at building these looms.

 

Al

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Al:

 

He said he has fuel GETTING to the injectors, but not specifically saying they are squirting, although he kind of mentioned it earlier; and I'm still not sure if he's done the complete fuel rail removal test on cranking to see if the injectors are actually firing. As you know, it's a vital test.

 

I would conclude though that his pump is priming and running.

 

And also, there is no accusation whatsoever, implied or otherwise by me that the loom construction is sub-standard. Just to be clear.

 

As ever, it's probably something really simple/silly. But we all make mistakes.

 

What I'm really trying to get a handle on as I said earlier is exactly what we have going on here to help find a potential fix for Nat, as he's quite obviously getting frustrated when he's so close.

Edited July 3, 2010 by DrSarty

[Anthony 1,000]

Make sure all the injectors are unplugged when checking for voltage on the two pins - with any of the injectors connected, you'll potentially see voltage on both pins as the current will go across the injector(s) to the other pin (the injectors are all batch-fired and thus all connected back to the same two wires)

 

Assuming when you've done this you're only seeing 12v on one of the pairs of injector pins, then check the other wire, which feeds back to the ECU - check that it's not something silly like the pin has popped out of the ECU plug, and check there's continuality (sp?) between the ECU plug pin and the pin that doesn't receieve voltage on the injector plug.

 

Only seeing voltage when cranking is fine as the injectors get their power from the fuel pump relay.

[All Praise The GTI 3]

rail has fuel but injectors not squirting although i did test with other plugs on so il unplug all and check for 12v. i did struggle with ecu plug a little to get through bulkhead so i may have pulled a wire somewhere,i was carefull tho as said before im very happy with the loom its probably something ive done wrong

[All Praise The GTI 3]

ok im a complete tit. several wires had pulled out the plug abit including no.24 for injectors.

fiddled with them for ages...stil no squirt. realised i hadnt plugged injectors back in!

then had a very scary bang! backfire so swapped firing order then we had lots of noise!!

im never messing with wiring again!!

many thanks to anthony for the loom and support and thanks for all the tips everyone else

wanders off with tail between legs to go make some more noise

[Anthony 1,000]

Glad you got it all sorted - it's always something simple in the end!