Its Nearly There.....pop Pop Bang

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

made a little progress today with the 205 but she still wont fire up.

i have sussed that i've got fuel and and power to the coil pack but a very weak spark at the plugs (tried new ones and still the same)

 

still tried firing her up but just got a lot of backfires, i checked the crank sensor position (not std as no bracket on g/box) and it is above tooth 21 when cyl 1 is at tdc so i adjusted the trigger position in ms and it made the car fire back out of the trumpets instead.

 

i still have to manually check the timing with a light (bit hard when you are on your own ) but tbh i aint got a clue whats going on???.

 

i am seriously considering going back to std inlet and ditch the tb's for now and also get a g/box with a mount for the sensor so know thats in the right place unless the boy wonder james can come to my rescue once again

 

jus tbeen looking through the coil pack setup and i'm not entirly convinced i have it correct duh.

 

here's some screens when cranking:

 

what is the firing order for wasted spark on a gti6 engine? and what is the correct way or connecting the leads on a ford coil pack (as the ht leads are numbered backwards??)

 

i'm sure it will all become clear and appologies for being really thick

Edited July 17, 2009 by pugpete1108

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Wish I could give you a real technical answer (and solve your woes), but isn't the firing order on nearly all 4 cyl engines 1-3-4-2?

 

I say this as it shouldn't matter whether it's dizzy or coil pack(s) driven, and it's something a lot of people get wrong, sometimes only because the Pug engine is numbered the other way round. *EDIT* But I always forget which way that is. It's in the Haynes manual and it's the opposite to most. I'll try and find that commonly used picture to show dizzy-plug HT wiring.

 

You could try looking at that first.

 

The GTI6 also as standard has a cam sensor too because with standard coil packs x 4 it delivers sequential injection and ignition, rather than the wasted spark set-up you must be running with the Ford coil pack? Are you using that somehow?

 

Just throwing some ideas up rather than knowing the actual answer.

 

Another thing I can remember from using MS was there's a setting for RPM required on cranking to make things happen.

 

To me though, the popping etc sounds like a mis-timing issue. 180deg out might cause this, so perhaps an HT lead re-number from the other end could sort this for you.

 

I hope that helps get you closer to a solution.

 

And your inlet air temp is showing minus 24degC. Apparently IAT sensors aren't essential as the MAP sensor is doing most of the work. On the other hand I've also heard that MAP sensors aren't essential either until you run forced induction.

 

I could be being the biggest internet mechanic in the world here, but I have installed 2 engines now with success and learnt alot from this forum, which I'm just repeating and it did help me.

Edited July 17, 2009 by DrSarty

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

Wish I could give you a real technical answer (and solve your woes), but isn't the firing order on nearly all 4 cyl engines 1-3-4-2?

 

I say this as it shouldn't matter whether it's dizzy or coil pack(s) driven, and it's something a lot of people get wrong, sometimes only because the Pug engine is numbered the other way round, i.e. no1 is at the cam belt end NOT the flywheel end.

 

You could try looking that first.

 

The GTI6 also as standard has a cam sensor too because with standard coil packs x 4 it delivers sequential injection and ignition, rather than the wasted spark set-up you must be running with the Ford coil pack? Are you using that somehow?

 

Just throwing some ideas up rather than knowing the actual answer.

 

Another thing I can remember from using MS was there's a setting for RPM required on cranking to make things happen.

 

To me though, the popping etc sounds like a mis-timing issue. 180deg out might cause this, so perhaps an HT lead re-number from the other end could sort this for you.

 

I hope that helps get you closer to a solution.

 

And your inlet air temp is showing minus 24degC. Apparently IAT sensors aren't essential as the MAP sensor is doing most of the work. On the other hand I've also heard that MAP sensors aren't essential either until you run forced induction.

 

I could be being the biggest internet mechanic in the world here, but I have installed 2 engines now with success and learnt alot from this forum, which I'm just repeating and it did help me.

 

i was under the impression that cyl 1 was at the flywheel end of the head?? if not then this is more than likely the problem.

 

i have ditched the cam sensor and cop setup and am usingn a ford coil pack on wasted spark it seems the coil pack fires 1+4 and 3+2

and with regards to the temp sensors i really havent got a clue, i measured the resistance figures and james (wracing) put them on the ecu for me. i need to top up the coolant so that could be why that is showning so low (small leak on the bottom hose)

i,m going to enlist the help of my daughter tomorrow and check the timing with a light hopefully that should make things a little clearer.

still at least its firing even if its totally in the wrong place

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Note: I've just edited my post as I'm looking up the cylinder numbering order as I don't want to advise you incorrectly. It could still be 180deg out anyway.

 

I should be back with a pic in a minute which shows the dizzy-plug HT wiring which shows the correct cylinder numbering...

Edited July 17, 2009 by DrSarty

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

the 205 manual states that no1 cylinder is nearest the fly

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

the 205 manual states that no1 cylinder is nearest the fly

 

Yes. You are correct. My bad. Perhaps you have the firing order incorrect though?

 

This is the pic I was looking for, and the order is 1-3-4-2. (Scroll down)

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...hl=firing+order

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

Yes. You are correct. My bad. Perhaps you have the firing order incorrect though?

 

This is the pic I was looking for, and the order is 1-3-4-2. (Scroll down)

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...hl=firing+order

 

i cant see how?, it fires both 1+4 and 2+3 i'll try and switch the driver leads back over and try that.

would a bad earth cause a poor spark? as when i pulled the plugs they seemed to be giving a really weak spark even after i put new ones on there. they were also very intermittent.

[RossD 43]

Weak spark you say - Does the MS software have a function to adjust the charge time\dwell of the coils? It could be set to an incorrect value. (Or are you using the EDIS coilpacks that have the built in ignition drivers and so control this automatically?)

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

i'm using this coil pack wired up this way:

 

with regards to dwell/charge times for the coil pack i dont know, there may be????

 

might have to get the manuals out again

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

i'm now thinking it may have something to do with the temp sensors not giving the correct info the the ecu?, if it thinks the car is at -40 surely it will overfuel or give a differnt spark advance?

 

can the senors be connected round the wrong way? or does it not matter failing that i will get some ms sensors £45 + del ouch. at least then i will know they actually work.

 

also changed the main ecu earth today back to the battery and i now have lights on the front of the ecu.

 

could be a poor earth to the sensors too?

Edited July 18, 2009 by pugpete1108

[Mad Professor 7]

By the looks of your screenshots you are running MS1 extra.

 

Before we all start playing the guessing game the best thing to do is to save and upload your current MSQ (Config File), for us to review.

 

Then we can advice you more.

 

Best Regards.

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

not sure if this is right but hey.... what do you view a msq file with anyway?

 

it wouldn't let me upload it anyway?? how can i do it?

[wracing 19]

Pete I just pm'ed you, I have so little time atm the dwell setting can be adjusted and that is a very good point made that it may be a cause of weak spark. Dwell should be fixed I believe during cranking. don’t worry about your afr, the sensors don’t work properly till they are hot. Your injecting fuel which is good, one thing which needs looking at is the sensor values!! If you can check your readings ill send you a new msq if you get stuck

 

If it is popping through the bodies I wouldn’t worry about the spark intensity for the moment we need to get the timing spot on.

 

With tooth 21 at cyl 1 tdc and 120degrees btdc at first missing tooth I get these trigger positions

 

11 trig a

19 return a

41 trig b

49 return b

 

Trigger angle of 60 deduction 0

 

With out knowing exact tooth and btdc angle its a pain!

 

I may be wrong but the firing pairs are 1 and 3 together and 2 and 4. Check this before adjusting your trigger position.

 

If you test the coil pack for resistance over the coil outputs you will be able to establish the firing pairs.

 

f*** megasquit sensors those from a std bosch injection system work great.

 

james

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

got the coolant sensor working it turns out that 'cough i forgot to plug it back in 'cough'

 

i can work out btdc angle for you, if you tell me how?

 

is it the angle btdc when the 1st missing tooth is under the sensor?

 

with the coil driver wires the 'correct' way round as per the manual i get no firing (dont even think i get a spark ?)at all its only when i cange them over (a to b and b to a) that i get anything. how can i adjust the dwell sttings and what do i adjust them to to gain more intensity?

[wracing 19]

 

use these dwell figures and just watch for heat buildup in the coil and drivers

 

clicky

 

this page explains how to tune dwell for ms system.

 

if you switch back the coil wiring to the correct way then start with these dwell figures and a btdc figure of 122degrees fingers crossed.....

 

disconnect all the injectors and remove plugs place them on a good earth and see if you have sparks in all the plugs.

 

good luck

 

 

james

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

couldn't see the top file mate, email it to me if you get the chance

send it to my talktalk email

 

cheers

 

pete

 

dont worry i can see it now????

 

its gone again, whats up with that image?

 

the dwell settings were on

 

Edited July 19, 2009 by pugpete1108

[wracing 19]

I think it’s got hotlink protection try lowering the discharge period think that affects spark intensity of the top of my head. I knew it would be quite close, if you’re still having problems earths!!! They need to be 1ohm or less ideally

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

i have lowered the discharge to 0.1 ms and from what i can remember the earths were at 0ohms?

 

i'm gonna run them all back to the battery i think anyway at least i can eliminate that then.

 

i have posted on the ms forum and see what they come up with

 

cheers

pete

[ALEX 98 1 Cars]

-40°C Quite cold for Kent in July!

 

Ship the car to Antartica to se if it fires up!

 

I'm not helping much am I... Sorry, I be quiet

Edited July 20, 2009 by ALEX

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

lets be honest, it could well be -40 here in sunny old england