SPGTi 2 Posted June 22, 2007 Be gentle with me, I don't know much about TU engine numbers, what works with what etc etc. I have been toying with the idea of swapping the XU lump out of the 205 and replacing it with a 1400 TU engine. This is mainly so that if I decide to do some single venue rallies I can enter the 1400 classes, but I need to stay on std plenum, throttle body and injection as I would still road rally the car. I will be looking to use stand alone management but that's about as far as I have got. So options, what can be done on an 8v ? can a 1.6 16v be "destroked" easily (at all)? Is building a 1.4 16v straight forward(ish) or will I have to sort out custom pistons etc ? I am not limited to choice of block, so either ali or steel. A mish mash of oem parts with uprated cam(s) would be the preferred option. I have read the 1.4 16v topic by Sandy and RossD thread, but wondered if there are any easy options and the effect of staying on std intake. Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jrod 7 Posted June 22, 2007 Would it have to be standard tu intake or standard XU intake? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SPGTi 2 Posted June 22, 2007 Would it have to be standard tu intake or standard XU intake? Std TU intake. The regs have changed a bit in road rallying, if 16v twin cam then must have std intake, throttle body for the engine (take that as being head). 8v (single cam) not quite as stringent. Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jrod 7 Posted June 22, 2007 A 1.4 106 xsi would be a good bet then I'd imagine. 8v an 97bhp as standard. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sandy 189 Posted June 22, 2007 I would TB an alloy 8v. De-stroking the 16v to 1400cc requires custom parts and will have limited potential, about 30kg heavier too (block +23kg, head approx +7kg). Also, if you want to build a high revving 16v (essential for full potential), you'll be into solid lifters, two cams, twice as many springs, retainers etc), much more expensive than a similarly exotic 8v. Don't let people put you off the alloy block, it's perfectly reliable if built properly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jrod 7 Posted June 22, 2007 Sandy, the way I read it it has to be standard intake so he is not allowed to use throttle bodies unless its the standard one? Would it be possible to build a 1.4 xsi into an alloy block for the 97bhp from an alloy block with standard intake? (ignore me If I'm being stupid!) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest cknotty Posted June 22, 2007 I would TB an alloy 8v. Don't think you're allowed to do that. The blue book states for road rallies: "Fuel injection may be fitted where it was standard equipment by the manufacturer for that engine type and where the original plenum chamber and throttle body is retained for that type". I quite like the idea of an alloy TU3S with 106 1.3 Rallye head and intake system. Is that possible? Chris Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Thomson 6 Posted June 22, 2007 Intake wise, the 106 Rallye (ie. the proper one, not the later gay-boy version) had a plenum designed for rallying that is fairly awesome, and doesn't give much away to TBs... The Rallye throttle body is massive. What are you thinking about doing for a 'box, Steve? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SPGTi 2 Posted June 22, 2007 No ITBs or twin carbs allowed . So basically most cost effective would be 1.4XSI bottom end(is this steel or alloy ?) with 1.3 rallye head ? What cam, what sort of compression ratio ? Does this bolt straight up ? What difference is the bottom end from the 205XS ? How about 1.4s used in 206's, 306's and 307's ? As far as the 1.4 16v route, from the comments I take it there is no easy route from the Pug / Citroen parts bin ? Would bolting the 16v head to the 1.4xsi bottom end work ? sorry for all the questions, I have searched but get lost in the different codes. Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SPGTi 2 Posted June 22, 2007 What are you thinking about doing for a 'box, Steve? A friend at the car club is running a BE4R with BE3 internals, so I was hoping I could crib off him and use my existing box (that I got off a dodgy bloke on here )with the BE4R bellhousing. Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jrod 7 Posted June 22, 2007 you would want to use a 205 xs block as it's alloy. No idea compression wise but you can use 106 xsi pistons as they are domed to raise compression. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Thomson 6 Posted June 22, 2007 Interesting topic... I've got a 106 Rallye stage car (pic in avatar) and it's good fun, it's quick for what it is, and will be a whole load quicker when I've got my new engine and box. But I wish it was a 205... I go through phases of thinking the 106 is a great little car, but I don't think it handles very well, I hate the sh*t MA gearboxes, I hate the fact that my hands are too big to do anything under the bonnet, I hate the fact that fitting throttle bodies means cutting a chuffing great hole in the bulkhead, I hate the fact that the lower engine mount is peeling away from the floor and that the suspension attaches straight to the shell. The same engine in a 205 GTi with a BE4R box would solve all those issues. I just love the way the 205 handles, and reckon I'd be a fair bit quicker in a 205 than I am in the 106. I've let a mate borrow the 106 this weekend. Fingers crossed that he'll roll it into a ball of snot, thus giving me the excuse to build a proper 1400cc 205... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sandy 189 Posted June 22, 2007 Sorry, I'd read it that if you kept it 8v, then TB's would be allowed. You could put a 106 16v head on a later ET3 bottom end fairly simply and cheaply. The ET3 rods are a bit weedy, but with some preparation, would probably last quite well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SPGTi 2 Posted June 23, 2007 You could put a 106 16v head on a later ET3 bottom end fairly simply and cheaply. The ET3 rods are a bit weedy, but with some preparation, would probably last quite well. Ok, so what would you find the ET3 bottom end in ? 206, 207 ? Fairly simply would entail, just bolting it on ? or I suppose tensioners would need to be added to the block ?do any Water and oil ways line up ? If the rods are a bit weedy can these be swapped with rods / pistons from another engine ? Going one step further, what cams would you recommend ? Std 16v or meatier ones ? On the power side, do you think 130bhp @ flywheel could be seen fairly easily from this sort of setup ? cheers Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sandy 189 Posted June 23, 2007 The ET3 is a 1.4 16v (TU based, alloy block, silly head/valvetrain). It's fitted to the 206/207/307/ and C2/C3/C4 afaik. The 106 16v head would bolt straight on as regards oil ways and water ways, but I'd advise swapping the plastic belt tensioner and idler for metal ones. It looks as though the valve cut outs are in the right place, but I haven't checked yet, they are quite deep (inlet only, none exhaust side). The rods have a different small end size to older TU's and don't really have enough meat for bushing. It would be custom rods to improve it. The standard 1.6 16v cams should work well, I'd certainly start out with them and see what you get, lairier cams without TB's will almost certainly provide diminishing returns. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rally ax 0 Posted June 25, 2007 "I've let a mate borrow the 106 this weekend. Fingers crossed that he'll roll it into a ball of snot, thus giving me the excuse to build a proper 1400cc 205..." -don't do it Rob !,,,don't go over to the dark side Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Thomson 6 Posted June 25, 2007 "I've let a mate borrow the 106 this weekend. Fingers crossed that he'll roll it into a ball of snot, thus giving me the excuse to build a proper 1400cc 205..." -don't do it Rob !,,,don't go over to the dark side Don't worry Garry, the silly sod managed to finish without smacking it into anything, so looks like I'll be rallying a 106 for a little bit longer... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Craigb 2 Posted June 25, 2007 Interesting topic Steve as you are asking to compete in 2 disciplines that require different engine requirements and restrictions. When I had my 106 1.3 Rallye it had a GPA cam etc pushing 130 and as a single venue car could be competitive at venues that suited it and the engines nature (all its power above 5K ), generally finishing 1st or 2nd in class but on the twisty stop start ( hairpin type) venues it lost out to the torque's of 1.3 Nova's. Before i bought my current 205 , i considered running the 106 in road events but decided that it was too intense to keep it on the boil with its lack of low down torque with all the stop give ways etc. that's why I went for the 1.9 205. the flip side is the fact that in std form the 106 rallye can cut it on road events an proved by several guys around the country . but throwing a std 106 at a stage event means its less likely to be competitive . The 1.4 Nova / corsa's in mild tune are pushing 145 Bhp on bike carbs and those throwing more money at their engines are seeing 160's. So I think one of the questions to be answered will be which of the two disciplines will be for fun rather than outright competitiveness? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Thomson 6 Posted June 25, 2007 Craig makes a couple of very valid points, and as the man who finished a car in front of my 106 at Swinderby on Sunday who can argue?! Why don't you do a couple of single venue rallies with the 1.9 up front? Ok, you won't be competitive - but do you really care? At the end of the day it's all about enjoying yourself, and for the first few rallies that enjoyment comes from knowing you've driven reasonably well and finished rather than from beating people in the same class... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SPGTi 2 Posted June 25, 2007 I know all about the fast 1.4's. Look at the results for the Rally of the Midlands. Gamble and Sykes have the Bowyer 1.4 TUs pushing around 190bhp and I believe Pinder has a Mountune 1.4 pushing about the same. They are driving away from the rest of the field. Rob, I am only out to have fun !! Just wanting to explore some different options. I am also thinking of ditching the 205 altogether and getting a BMW E30 for some cheap rwd fun around the lanes. cheers Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Craigb 2 Posted June 26, 2007 Rob Didn't realise that that was your car running in at swinderby , were you there , or was watching someone else drive your car to hard to bear ? I don't think i could watch . Steve E30 sounds like a recipe for fun . I Guy i know ran a M3 one for a season and grinned all year . the Chaps running the RWD challenge are developing some reasonable parts for the six cylinder 323's that would transfer over to a 4 pot version . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Thomson 6 Posted June 26, 2007 Didn't realise that that was your car running in at swinderby , were you there , or was watching someone else drive your car to hard to bear ? I don't think i could watch. I didn't go. I wondered about spectating, but didn't really fancy watching my car getting thrashed by someone else... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rally ax 0 Posted June 26, 2007 your brave lending out your car Rob , I woulda want to give our "Wrc Ax" to someone else to thrash about - I strugle to get a shot of it from the wife ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Thomson 6 Posted June 26, 2007 I lent it to it's previous (God-like) owner, so I wasn't too worried. He's probably the only person I'd lend it to... Also, Dean runs his own rally prep business so is well equipped to repair any damage! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
