Tu Spec, Help Needed

[RossD 43]

Hello all, long time member, now getting back into the 205 scene... Hopefully

 

I've got sitting at home my old 1990 5dr GT, and want to turn it into a track day plaything on the (relative) cheap. Want to stick with the 1.4 and have the following in mind....

 

I want a good 120 - 130 bhp from the 1.4. Probably use megasquirt and throttle bodies and a nice lumpy cam. Now, I've been readin through topics regarding the cylinder heads on these TU engines. (And yes, I wanna stick with the 1.4, mainly for cost/tax/insurance reasons!)

 

Seen talk of TU5 blacktops going on the 1360 block. Are these a straight swap? Also the TU3M head from a 106 XSi, heard talk of bigger valves, harder springs and better ports on these?

So whats the best head to use? Something thats a straight swap would be nice. Something that would save me doing a headjob on the standard TU3S head.

 

Next, onto manifolds for the TB's. The port/stud sapcing is different on the multipoint engines compared to the carb engines is it not? (Anyone got a manifold lying around for carbs/TB's they dont want?!?!) Whats the preffered manifold for this? Seen the Chadil one on their website, are these a) any good and b ) still available?! Also seen the GMC for the 1.4 mulitpoint head.

 

To keep costs down, using a multipoint head and throttle bodies with no injectors (injectors in standard place) might be a good idea?

 

Not to sure on using carbs to be honest, I like the reliability of injection, also parts for weber carbs are getting pretty thin on the ground I believe?

 

So help me out! Used to be pretty knowledgeable about these TU lumps, but years of not owning one and uni and now work, the knowledge I have has leaked away

 

Will prob rebuild the bottom end of the 1.4, new bearings, maybe rod bolts. Its done 94k, most of which has been gentle(ish)!

 

Rest of car will probably stay standard, uprated suspension, strip out interior and have buckets. Something to have a bit of fun with at a trackday but stya road legal really.

 

Cheers guys

[Sandy 189]

I would heartily recommend you sart with a 106 Rallye or XSi black top (or 306/Xsara 1.6 blacktop) head, better ports, bigger valves, better springs and a good range of camshafts available. The Catcam 4900646 would be ideal. There's a group buy elsewhere on this site for 4 branch manifolds from France. Regarding bodies etc, there aren't any decent inlet manfiolds available from what i've seen, the Chadil ones are designed to fit carbs in the very tight space available in the 106 engine bay and the manifold is seriously compromised as a result. I had two custom inlet manifolds to my design for this head in the 205, which take advantage of the space available to create much smoother tracts. My original one which uses Jenvey SF bodies for very close spacing (63mm spacing, almost matching the 50mm spacing of the port pairs), is now on Sam's 1.6 8v. He's selling them now as he's building a bigger turbo lump now, so worth getting in touch! Pics here: http://noboost.com/temp/sandy/IMG_1916red.jpg

 

The only real obstacle is getting the compression ratio high enough, the chamber on that head is bigger than the earlier head, the 205 1.4 pistons are dished; so you need to skim the head and get the intruder pistons from a 1.4 XSi 105, 205 Rallye 1.3 (LHD Euro type) or pistons and rods from a 106 1.3 Rallye, milled down to fit.

 

It's not an easy build given all these changes, but the 1360cc 8v is an engine that burst with enthusiasm when tuned well and alot more fun than the 1.6, which also carries the extra 23kg of the Iron block!

[RossD 43]

Ah perfect, just the info regarding the engine I was looking for. I totally agree with you regarding these 1.4 engines, I mean its nippy enough with 85bhp, I can't imagine wot a revvy 120bhp will be like!

 

Any idea of what kind of price he would want for the manifold & bodies, I would be seriously interested if the price is right! (Or just the manifold)

 

So the 1.6 head will go straight on, no compression issues when using 1.4 XSi pistons?

 

Thanks for help so far

[bren_1.3 1]

so you need to skim the head and get the intruder pistons from a 1.4 XSi 105, 205 Rallye 1.3 (LHD Euro type) or pistons and rods from a 106 1.3 Rallye, milled down to fit.

 

negative on the 205 1.3 pistons, theyre actually shorter than the 1.4 pistons by 5mm so you'll be lowering compression, look for the pistons from a 106 xsi. condrods are the same length as the 1.4 ones so all you need to do really is swap the pistons and rods into the 1.4 alloy block and away you go, no need for a heavy skim.

 

EDIT: everything else i do agree with.....excellent engines.

Edited October 11, 2006 by brens_1.9_wide_arch

[Sandy 189]

Well there you go, i've never actually got my hands on the Euro 205 ones.

 

I've sent a Sam a link to this thread so hopefully he'll get in touch.

[RossD 43]

Cheers, I sent him an email via his website too

 

Now to get the rest of the car sorted, suspension etc! Its already got vented 247mm 306 discs, so they should do for the moment, but thats a subject for another thread!

 

I'm off down to my local breakers on friday, so hopefully they'll have something worth getting, they did have a 1.4 XSi 106 last time!

Luckily live relatively close to QEP and Bridges breakers yard (Pease Pottage) so hopefully parts supply wont be a problem!

 

Cheers guys

[Sam 4]

I've replied to both your emails. Without sounding cheesey, this is the best inlet setup I've ever had on the car, and I've tried loads!

 

It'll sound similar to this... (with a good cam!).... http://temp.noboost.com/sandy/MOV03096.MPG

Edited October 14, 2006 by Sam

[RossD 43]

I've replied to both your emails. Without sounding cheesey, this is the best inlet setup I've ever had on the car, and I've tried loads!

 

It'll sound similar to this... (with a good cam!).... http://temp.noboost.com/sandy/MOV03096.MPG

 

Yep, thanks for the replies Sam. As said in the emails I'll buy these off you when you get back/are ready to part with them!

The car I was going to use has now been passed down to my bro, so I'll be on the lookout for a nice condition XS after Xmas. Just getting all the parts together I need first, I know, seems odd getting the car last, but hey!

Picking up the new cylinder head this week (TU5J2 from a 106 Rallye)

[macaroni 17 1 Cars]

Ross,

why don't you want to get the standard xs head worked?

[Sam 4]

The XS head isn't the best to start with. Better to get a good starting block.

[Rippthrough 98]

The XS head isn't the best to start with. Better to get a good starting block.

 

Hmm, am I going backward from the TU3M head to TU3S then?

 

-Phillip

[Sam 4]

Is the TU3M the 1360cc XSI head? Or am I thinking TU3JP?

 

The 1360cc XSI one is probably the best 1360cc head and is very similar if not the same as the 1598cc heads.

[macaroni 17 1 Cars]

Here's a daft question - into what do the injectors screw - the head or the inlet manifold?

 

Would a TU3S inlet manifold bolt straight onto a 106 xsi or 1.6 head?

[Sam 4]

They are push fit, and they fit into the head. Unfortunately the TU3S inlet doesn't fit a TU5JP/J2 head.

[Rippthrough 98]

It's the standard Tu3 injection head - 75bhp, but I did notice it has much smaller ports than the xs, despite being only 10bhp down with a milder cam.

[Grahamrally 0]

Up until recently I ran a 205 XS with a 1294cc TU24 engine in which I had tuned. I learnt a lot about the scope of the engine and things I could and couldn't do with it. As said really the best setup would be a 1360cc block with a rallye head from either the TU24 or 106 Rallye which you have. Pretty much identical heads from what I saw of them. I did the headwork myself on mine and used a GMC camshaft with group A valves, pocketed standard pistons and very high compression on twin 40's. It was hitting 130bhp, which was ok, but I know with someone like Longman headwork you would see a lot past that. The main issue I was having was on the ignition timing side of things. Still running a distributor and 11.5:1+ compression meant it pinked like mad low down if I upped the timing too much. I also managed to crack the side of a liner, which may I add was brand new! I assume that was down to the compression it was taking and melt a piston too on the rolling road, I think due to fuelling, but may have been ignition timing.

I think 10.5:1 compression, headwork, mad cam, TB's and management on a 1360 would easily hit 140bhp+.

[Sandy 189]

A mad cam isn't needed on the 1360 with the XSi/Rallye head, about 280-290 degrees and 11-11.5mm lift is all you need. You'll get just as much peak and wider useful power range than with wilder cams, due to the good valve sizes and low shrouding.

Edited October 16, 2006 by sandy309

[RossD 43]

Up until recently I ran a 205 XS with a 1294cc TU24 engine in which I had tuned. I learnt a lot about the scope of the engine and things I could and couldn't do with it. As said really the best setup would be a 1360cc block with a rallye head from either the TU24 or 106 Rallye which you have. Pretty much identical heads from what I saw of them. I did the headwork myself on mine and used a GMC camshaft with group A valves, pocketed standard pistons and very high compression on twin 40's. It was hitting 130bhp, which was ok, but I know with someone like Longman headwork you would see a lot past that. The main issue I was having was on the ignition timing side of things. Still running a distributor and 11.5:1+ compression meant it pinked like mad low down if I upped the timing too much. I also managed to crack the side of a liner, which may I add was brand new! I assume that was down to the compression it was taking and melt a piston too on the rolling road, I think due to fuelling, but may have been ignition timing.

I think 10.5:1 compression, headwork, mad cam, TB's and management on a 1360 would easily hit 140bhp+.

 

The pinking is something I'm hoping to avoid as I'll be running full injection/igntion control, hopefully using Sams TB's and manifold and most probably megasquirt or similar. I'm going to have to work out the compression ratio once I have the head, pistons and block, but probably aim for approx 10.5:1, maybe a tad higher, as you've said above.

One thing I dont really want is balls out top end at the expense losing all the mid-range, which is why I'm still undecided on the cam choice. Does anyone know the spec of the cam in the 1.6 Rallye engine (TU5J2?) as this will be coming with the head I have got hold of.

[christopher 5 1 Cars]

Up until recently I ran a 205 XS with a 1294cc TU24 engine in which I had tuned. I learnt a lot about the scope of the engine and things I could and couldn't do with it. As said really the best setup would be a 1360cc block with a rallye head from either the TU24 or 106 Rallye which you have. Pretty much identical heads from what I saw of them. I did the headwork myself on mine and used a GMC camshaft with group A valves, pocketed standard pistons and very high compression on twin 40's. It was hitting 130bhp, which was ok, but I know with someone like Longman headwork you would see a lot past that. The main issue I was having was on the ignition timing side of things. Still running a distributor and 11.5:1+ compression meant it pinked like mad low down if I upped the timing too much. I also managed to crack the side of a liner, which may I add was brand new! I assume that was down to the compression it was taking and melt a piston too on the rolling road, I think due to fuelling, but may have been ignition timing.

I think 10.5:1 compression, headwork, mad cam, TB's and management on a 1360 would easily hit 140bhp+.

 

How much did you skim? Must have been pretty hefty if you had 11.5:1 ?

 

Were you running a TU24 dizzy or an XS one?

[stu_woac 1]

I believe I have this with not alot of skimming due to using the xs head on a 1.6 bottom end, the pinking can be a pain my dizzy blew up on my last trackday so may look in to dizzyless I have everything from a 1.6 tu sat in the garage for ingtion so half way there, but aslo been talking with h&h who did my dizzy last time and they maybe able to work around it too my tuner believes he could fine 10bhp if he could advance It

[bren_1.3 1]

I believe I have this with not alot of skimming due to using the xs head on a 1.6 bottom end, the pinking can be a pain my dizzy blew up on my last trackday so may look in to dizzyless I have everything from a 1.6 tu sat in the garage for ingtion so half way there, but aslo been talking with h&h who did my dizzy last time and they maybe able to work around it too my tuner believes he could fine 10bhp if he could advance It

 

120 quid installed for a megajolt. 60+ for a modified dizzy. take your pick.

[stu_woac 1]

modified dizzy FReeeee its only done 3000 miles (since they did there magic) so in talks now about price, but yes I'm looking at megajolts and others, wheres that price from mate??

[Grahamrally 0]

How much did you skim? Must have been pretty hefty if you had 11.5:1 ?

 

Were you running a TU24 dizzy or an XS one?

 

I'm not sure of the exact skim as I didn't have the engine from standard, but I believe it was in the region of 2.5mm. Bit too much if you ask me. The inlet valves sat proud of the surface of the head.

 

Certainly in the end I was running the XS distributor which I'm sure contributed to the pinking, but all it really needed is someone like aldon ignition systems advancing the curve so you can retard it at lower revs.

[trogboy 17]

I wondered when you would pop up Graham. Good to see you on here.

 

Christopher - I think I am right in saying that Graham was using a TU3S dizzy. I seem to recall that it was the head that was given a mightly skim. The pocketed TU24 pistons looked well sexy, just a shame the engine toasted itself. Graham has sold it now and the XS along with it.

 

Stu - I think Brennan has sourced his megajolt bits from MartinM off the forum

 

Edit: Darn beaten to it!

Edited October 16, 2006 by trogboy

[macaroni 17 1 Cars]

Graham, so what was the static advance you ran with the altered dizzy?

 

I have an H&H dizzy and wonder just how far I can advance it.