XU block sensor at back of engine - any ideas please ??

[Tideee 3 1 Cars]

Afternoon all

 

I've taken out what I thought was my 8v XU DFZ cat 1.9 engine and have found this sensor in the back face of the block next to the dipstick tube....I wasn't aware of any wires going to it but would like to know what the sensor is for and what wires "should" go to it for it to function ??

 

Any ideas out there please ??....and is it indeed a DFZ block ??

 

Thanks 

[Anthony 1,000]

It's the oil level sensor, only used on very early 205's.  I'm not sure on DFZ's specifically, but that sensor isn't usually present on D6B (1.9 non-CAT) engines so it may be that isn't the original engine to the car - other PSA models that used the 1.6/1.9 XU (e.g. 405, BX) often did have the oil level gauge on the dash and thus had the sensor present on the engine.

[DamirGTI 323]

If having CAT. , and based on you're previous thread with the coil wiring , you're engine should be DKZ ! not the DFZ . 

 

This block (kinda) looks to be DKZ , but just based on a toothed flywheel for the CAS sensor on which the DKZ engine runs instead of the "pick up" mechanical  distributor .

By the way , the toothed flywheel on a DKZ engine should be 200mm .

 

Take an photo from the top of the block .

There should be an tag with the engine code riveted on the timing belt side front corner of the block , otherwise bar the toothed flywheel only thing which is different on a DKZ block is the pistons , ie. piston crowns .. the dish in the pistons is a tad deeper on a DKZ engine than the D6B one .

 

Think it's around 17cc volume dish for the DKZ , and 15cc for the D6B .. DFZ had 1,6 style pistons with 9cc dish and 1.9 connecting rods , also pistons go all the way up flush with the block deck on a DFZ engine .

 

DKZ engine also runs Motronic 1.3 engine management (take a look at the ECU , should have "Motronic" letters embossed on the ECU cover) , different AFM shape (last three digits on a AFM cover *202) , "hollow" distributor with no mechanical parts (bob weights , springs etc.) , inlet manifold mounted square ignition coil , an Lambda sensor , CAS sensor also EVAP purge system if still on .

 

Mechanically , can distinguish it from the rest based on the camshaft (take a look at the position of the paint mark rings) , pistons as said above , and toothed flywheel to run the CAS sensor also as on you're picture above . Also late engines as well as DKZ usually had oil/coolant heat exchanger with the remote filter mounted near the gearbox , rather than block mounted filter unit "sandwich plate" and an oil/air cooler .

 

Chassis number can also tell you which engine was factory fit in that shell .. unless it was changed trough the years of the life of the car , or messed up with different mix of mechanical/engine management parts .

 

D

Edited January 18, 2022 by DamirGTI

[Tideee 3 1 Cars]

Thanks Damir - very interesting data and that throws up quite a few more questions and also possibly confirms my thoughts that it isn't (...or parts of it aren't ) original , but let's have a go at the evidence that I have ...

 

1) unfortunately there are no engine plates on the top RH side of the block near cylinder 1 - just the rivet marks of where there was once something :-(

2) I can confirm it is on Motronic M1.3 with all the features that you mention, so a different AFM with last 3 digits *202, "hollow" distributor, inlet manifold mounted square ignition coil , Lambda sensor , CAS sensor and the EVAP purge system valve is also still in place 

3) 200mm clutch with the toothed flywheel

4) Will have to check the camshaft and feedback ....

5) No oil cooler at all present, either a sandwich plate or a oil/coolant heat exchanger

6) LHD

 

do you have the ability to check via the chassis no ??....if so, can you message me possibly and I can supply you the specific details :-)

 

Thanks for sharing this info - really helpful 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Tideee

[DamirGTI 323]

Sounds like DKZ engine then with Motronic 1.3 management as it should be originally .

 

Chassis number , work you're way from the start VF320 -> 7-th and 8-th digit/letter will be first two letters of the engine code .

 

Like , for DKZ engine : VF320CDK...

 

D

Edited January 18, 2022 by DamirGTI

[SRDT 146]

The DKZ engine was also used on the BX and 405 so it's not that strange to see the oil level sensor. The D6B was only used on the 205 and 309 so there was no need to keep it.

 

The "lost" engine plate could mean that the block was changed at some point. It's easy to forget the spacer on the head bolt above the water pump... before you know it you're looking for a cheap bare XU block.

[petert 549]

It could well be a 1.9 DFZ Cat engine. We had them in Australia, in GTi's '87-'90. However, the flywheel is Motronic, thus it might be DKZ. A pic of the distributor will reveal all.

 

There's normally just a threaded bung in that hole, where the oil level sensor is. It's standard on Mi16 D6B/DFZ.

[Tideee 3 1 Cars]

On 1/18/2022 at 8:23 PM, DamirGTI said:

Sounds like DKZ engine then with Motronic 1.3 management as it should be originally .

 

Chassis number , work you're way from the start VF320 -> 7-th and 8-th digit/letter will be first two letters of the engine code .

 

Like , for DKZ engine : VF320CDK...

 

D

so, have been into the garage and had a another peek at stuff as part of my investigations.......so here are my findings :-)

 

1) The chassis no is VF320CDF2011.....so hopefully that might help ? - It also has ABE D390/1 - which I think is maybe for the German market ???

2) Motronic ECU has markings - 0 261 200 162

3) Camshaft has two painted white rings above cylinder 3 (as per image)

4) Distributor has markings - DUCELLIER 2525709A

 

Does that help identify what I have ??

 

Does anybody also have a colour coded wiring diagram for the engine bay please  - before I took the engine out to do all the mechanical checks and also replace clutch, the car had a running problem as in it wouldn't rev over 3k and would then promptly illuminate the K lamp on the dash.....so I'm trying to go through all the wires to make sure everything is there and correct and will replace lambda sensor and all the serviceable items before the motor goes back in.....

 

What's your thoughts on an oil cooler - should I have (....need ??) one do you think ??...and if so, would you advise a water/oil heat exchanger or an actual oil rad ?? (currently car also has two fans in place on the rad pack !!)

 

Would be great to nail down what this car would have been, as looks like its a bit of a "bitsa" as it stands !! 

 

Thanks for everyone's help.....fantastic source of info and much appreciated  

[DamirGTI 323]

From that chassis number , original factory fit engine in you're 205 was - 1.9 DFZ . 

 

- Yes , DKZ Motronic 1.3 ECU is : 0 261 200 162

 

- Camshaft is 1.9 DKZ item .

 

- Distributor , aslo DKZ item .

 

Seems like an mix , possibly you have DFZ block with the DKZ head ... or complete DKZ engine fitted instead DFZ (seems likely it's complete DKZ engine) .

 

There's no "color code" with regards to the wiring .. wiring is "coded" per numbers and letters , at the each end of the wire there's black stamp number/letter combination , say like : 16B . Just need wiring diagram and track wires by the numbers/letters .

Need an 205 pdf manual ? or you have one already ?

 

Kinda sounds like bad ignition module (not willing to rev past 3k) , but can be lambda sensor and/or EVAP purge valve , two of the most common fault's that pop up on a DKZ .

There's diagnostic socket near the fuel filter , 2pin green connector .. need an switch and an piece of wire , then ground that diag. connector , flip/activate the witch on/off for 3sec. and the K light will start to illuminate ... then you count the flashes of the K light , 11 (one long and one fast flash) is the initial/start of the diagnosis , after that it'll flash fault codes .

 

If in UK and for road driven car with no modification , i'd say no need for an oil cooler .. OE oil-to-air cooler isn't the most effective item anyways even here where it tends to be pretty hot during the summer season it hardly makes any difference with or without .

 

D

 

 

[Tideee 3 1 Cars]

Thanks Damir - great info....if you could please send me a 205 pdf manual, that would be fantastic 

 

If you could please send me a quick message, i'll let you know my email address 

 

Thanks again - great help 

[SRDT 146]

2 hours ago, Tideee said:

3) Camshaft has two painted white rings above cylinder 3 (as per image)

That's the camshaft for a early XU9J2 (D6A) or a XU9JAZ (DKZ) before 01/05/1992. Peugeot is numbering the cylinders from the flywheel so the white rings are on cylinder n°2.

[DamirGTI 323]

31 minutes ago, Tideee said:

If you could please send me a quick message ..

 

Will do ... preparation underway .

 

D

[Tideee 3 1 Cars]

So despite there being no evidence of an engine number on the actual engine.....the paperwork has just come back from the DVLA and there is an engine number listed on it....

 

Does this number help identify what might/should have been in my car at all ??

 

Number is :- 1CW6D002***

 

As ever, any help info from this fantastic forum is greatly appreciated 

[DamirGTI 323]

1CW.... = 1.9 engine .

 

http://www.dethomaso.fr/article-identifier-sa-205gti-114027761.html

 

Based on the chassis number you provided , you're car had factory fitted 1.9 DFZ engine .

 

And now seems like someone replaced DFZ engine with a DKZ along with the engine management .

 

If you have head off from the block see if the pistons are dished or almost flat (with very small dish) .. if it's still complete , take an spark pug out bring one piston near TDC and poke trough the spark plug hole with an pocket flashlight you'll be able to see the piston crown , and thus if it's deep or shallow dish on the piston .

 

Deep dished pistons will likely be 1.9 DKZ or 1.9 D6B (would need to measure the dish cc volume really to find out which of the two it is ..)

Shallow dish , 1.9 DFZ or 1.6 block . (1.9 DFZ uses 1.6 pistons but retains 1.9 conrods) 

 

D

[DamirGTI 323]

1.9 DKZ piston/crown left , 1.9 DFZ piston/crown right :

 

 

[DamirGTI 323]

These are 1.9 D6B pistons (not much visual difference if going just by the looks between the D6B and DKZ thus , need to measure the dish volume if unsure about those two which is which ..) :

 

 

 

 

[SRDT 146]

You could also find flat top pistons from a XU9J2 or early XU92C but the really hight compression ratio should be noticiable.