Late 1989 CTi 1.6 camshaft recommendations?

[lagonda 41]

The original cylinder head was found to be cracked back in 2006, so QEP in Sussex supplied a replacement, which they rebuilt. The only one they had spare was from a 1.9. I recall my original camshaft  was pretty worn (apparently common with 1.6s), so the 1.9 head retains its 1.9 camshaft, which I understand differs somewhat from the correct 1.6 one.

 

At that time the car had covered 163000 miles. speedo now reads 231000, so I've covered 68000 miles in the past 16 years. Rough running a couple of years ago, and I discovered that the exhaust valves for the two cylinders nearest the cam sprocket were reading pretty much zero clearance. Removed the camshaft and rearranged the shims, having some milled for optimum settings at that time. Unfortunately it seems I was too late ... recent compression tests show 15 - 16 bar on 3 cylinders, but only 3 bar on the other (second cylinder in from sprocket).

 

Rather surprised that my rebuilt head has suffered burnt valves less than 70000 miles later. Should I be checking clearances more frequently? Is this a more recent phenomenon, perhaps because of zero lead petrol? I've always used super unleaded/98 octane..

 

Main concern now though is that I'm wondering if it's worth replacing the 1.9 cam with one intended for the 1.6? If so, looking for recommendations as to what to fit, excluding a wear-prone original. The 1.9 cam remains in good condition, so will I notice a worthwhile improvement given the cost of a new camshaft?

[DamirGTI 323]

No not really .. once set properly the valve clearance will hold up many miles and years ahead without the need for re-adjustment .

It's not the unleaded petrol either , XU heads have hardened valve seats as standard thus unleaded petrol in not an issue on them .

 

Incorrectly adjusted valve clearances causes main problem on the valve train also impacts performance idle etc. , if too tight clearance especially nasty it'll speed up accelerate valve lifters wear , which then stretches further to the cam lobes wear , valves as you've already found out ...

 

Since you say the current cam is trash , and there was a few burnt valves too along with badly adjusted valve clearances ... for sure i'd say you'll need to replace valve lifters and the cam as an set .

 

1.9 cam is not as good combo for an 1.6 engine ... thus best to find OE 1.6 cam , or go for something aftermarket performance oriented .

Not sure if the cams on the later XU5JP engines are the same as early GTi XU5 item ?! if they are , suppose can find some at the scrappy easily from an old 406 1.6 or Xantia 1.6 , with the valve lifter set to go along with the cam .

 

D

 

 

[SRDT 146]

XU5J (105hp) cam was used in some XU52C. i think the XU5JA cam was specific to this engine.

[lagonda 41]

Hi both,

 

  Thanks for replies. That's interesting, I wonder why these valves have burnt.

 

  I'm pretty sure I'd have checked that QEP had set the clearances correctly when the head was rebuilt. I would have asked for them to be set to 0.30 - 0.35mm (and 0.20 - 0.25mm for inlet valves), which were settings recommended on this forum. Haynes states 0.35 - 0.45mm, perhaps I should have ignored forum advice?

 

  No, it was the original 1.6 cam that was knackered, this one still looks fine. The issue is that it's a 1.9 cam. From what you say, it looks like the car will run better with a 1.6 cam. For a start, the cam belt  lines have never lined up properly with the timing dowel inserted since the head was replaced (and the head was only skimmed lightly).

 

  Going to a scrappy isn't much of an option here in France.

 

  I've had a look on a French secondhand sales site, and a few possibles are listed there, One is for a 105 bhp 1.6 ... did the early version have a different camshaft? I think the 115bhp head has larger valves, so maybe the camshaft is the same? That is €50. One for a 115bhp 1.6 is €100. There is another, Cat Cams 4900243, which seems to be for a 1.6, but I'd need to know what state of tune ... turns out but it's "tarmac rally/race", so not an option.

 

  Happy enough with an aftermarket cam, some performance improvement welcome, but remember this is an everyday car ... any recommendations?

Edited January 18, 2022 by lagonda
updated details

[DamirGTI 323]

Problem with setting the valve clearances on the bench is , they'll be incorrect once the head is mounted on the block and all the head bolts tightened to the final torque stage .

 

What happens is , the force of the head bolt torque "stretches and squashes" the head thus the valve clearances always tighten up (decrease from what they've been set previously on the bench) .

Thus , always adjust/set and check valve clearances when the head is bolted onto the block and all the head bolts are fully nipped up .

 

Personally , i'd go with the std. 1.6 GTI camshaft ... if in France , shouldn't be hard to find replacement OE item .

 

D

 

[lagonda 41]

Hi Damir,

 Just finished updating my last post ... the Cat Cams one was rally/race so no good for my use. Hmm, that makes sense, I wonder if that's where things went wrong. I can see me checking the head once collected from QEP, and not thinking to check clearances once fitted. Might have been nice of them to warn me. They also declared one cylinder sub standard and sold me a new one. Later, I thought it was so cheap, why didn't they sell me a set?! Needless to say, its height differed enough from the three originals to make getting them all accurately level a huge pain.

 

 My concern with fitting an OE 1.6 cam is that I understood these were wear prone, and certainly my original was knackered.

 

  So I'd need to know if OE 1.6 cams are OK after all?

 

  Also, will one for a 105bhp 1.6 be the same as that for my 115bhp?

 

 

[DamirGTI 323]

For making full use of the race/rally cam , need to have good base first ... higher dynamic compression ratio than std. , then work your way dialing in the cam , perform cam run-in , and making some ignition/fuel mixture adjustments too , otherwise not much sense and best to retain OE cam profile especially if it's daily road driven car .

 

True , early 1.6 cams where kinda bad metallurgy wise and thus where prone to wear .. those ones you can distinguish by chamfered edges on the cam lobes , later they improved thus late 1.6 cams are good and look like the 1.9 D6B cam without chamfered edges .

There's paint ring marks on the cams , so you can identify which is which .

 

Unsure about the differences in early 105 hp and later 115 Hp cam profiles .. would need to dig trough my paperwork/data , someone else will know for sure .

 

If you've measured zero valve clearance , that's certainly problematic and what led to problems ... other , you might've had (or still have ?) bad/worn valve guides which made the valves burn .

 

Liners , can change by single item not a problem .. doesn't need to by done complete as an set of 4 if the rest where good , but yeah would be best to do all 4 if wanted proper long lasting job but then need to do piston rings and shells as well which adds expense .

Height of the liners is always the same ("Goetze" liners) at least i myself haven't found any difference in dimensions .. it's the O-ring that seals the bottom of the liner in the block , when fitting new O-ring no doubt it'll look higher than the rest 3 which sit on top of the old already "compressed" O-ring . If that was the case ?

 

D

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by DamirGTI

[Anthony 1,000]

In terms of aftermarket camshafts, something like a Kent PT36 or Piper P16BP270 will work well on an otherwise standard 1.6/1.9 GTi engine and injection and were quite common here in the UK at least so they still crop up periodically second hand.

 

A serviceable 1.6 GTi cam would be ideal if you can source one though.

[DamirGTI 323]

Found something with regards to the cams  , but only "lift" specs .

 

Early 1.6 engines (B1A) : 10.4 mm

Late 1.6 (B6D) : 9.7 mm

 

D

[SRDT 146]

The XU5JA 115hp engine has a special cam, the XU5J 105hp engine has the same camshaft listed as spare part than the XU52C and XU5M (BDY) up until 05/1992.

Speaking of XU52C and XU5M they have the "big valves" head from the XU5JA and XU9JA. At one point Peugeot started using it for regular engines.

[lagonda 41]

Thanks all for the replies. Really really helpful. That 105bhp cam for sale indeed has bevelled edges to its lobes ... which reminded me that my original cam was like that. So it's great news to hear later straight sided lobe 1.6 cams aren't wear prone.

 

My replacement liner was made by Kolbenschmidt; perhaps their quality control wasn't as good as your Goetze ones. I removed and cleaned all four liners, cleaned their seatings, and used new O rings on the cylinder bases when fitting. So the problem was with the new liner. I recall many hours swapping the cylinders around, different orientations, and eventually got to a level I was satisfied with. Whatever, it worked, the head gasket never blew!

 

Mine is definitely a B6D engine.

 

I've attached a couple of photos of the 115bhp 1.6 cam advertised over here. Does this look righ? In particular, are those paint rings indicative of a correct cam for my B6D engine?!

 

 

[Anthony 1,000]

Damir will probably be able to confirm as I'm sure he's listed them in the past, but I believe that's a D6B (XU9JA -1.9 GTi non-CAT) camshaft with two paint markings at the distributor end.

 

Unfortunately, B6D and B6E (XU5JA - 1.6 GTi 115hp) aren't listed on the document that I have listing the 8v camshaft markings

[lagonda 41]

Eek! Hope you're wrong, advert specifically states " Arbre à cames de 205 GTI 1L6 115 chvs avec sa poulie en trés bon état "

[DamirGTI 323]

As Anthony said , that's an 1.9 D6B cam .

 

Unfortunately i also have missing data for the paint mark locations for later 1.6 cams/engines .. suppose we all have the same OE reference book ?! which is mainly for the XU10 engines , but has some XU9/7/5 data as well but not all .

 

Anyhow , me thinks , 1.6 will be two paint rings but on the timing belt end of the cam .. so opposite from the 1.9 D6B , like this one :

 

 

.. can see the 1.9 D6B cam down next to the engine with the same markings as on you're pics from the advert site above , 100% that's D6B cam .

 

Other than by the paint ring marks , measuring the cam lobes with vernier calipers can reveal which is which too .

 

Hopefully our Frenchmen Mr. Baptiste will know and will have some additional OE data/info !

 

D

 

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by DamirGTI

[SRDT 146]

Sorry, I only have the spare part number.

[lagonda 41]

Hi All,

 There I was thinking I had this sorted .... just as well I didn't rush and buy it.

 

  I'd appreciate details of those cam lobe measurements, 1.6 and 1.9 so that I can be sure any proposed purchase is genuinely 1.6.

[petert 549]

What is the CR of your engine? Surely that affects your camshaft choice more than anything else?

 

I wouldn't even consider buying a 2nd hand cam for an 8V. The lobes mate to the buckets. I fear any installation will be short-lived.

Edited January 20, 2022 by petert

[lagonda 41]

The head was a used (1.9) one bouht from QEP, who rebuilt it for fitment to my 1.6. They skimmed it only enough to restore flatness, no more, so it should be standard (9.8:1?) plus a little ... but of course I don't know if the head had been skimmed previously. With a compression tester, throttle open, the good cylinders read 16, 15.1 and 15.4 bar; does that provide a guide?

[Thijs_Rallye 86 4 Cars]

Sound like healthy figures.

 

Catcams can make any cam you want, if you are lucky they already have reproduced a standard 115hp 1.6 spec one once before. Best to send them an email or give them a call. I don't know of they speak French though. You can even provide them with a cam which they can copy.

 

They recently reproduced two Cosworth cams for a mate of mine with a very specific lift / duration spec.

[SRDT 146]

You can also try to ask Techniprofil in France.

[petert 549]

If it was 9.8:1 and it's had a light skim, it's probably 10:1 now. I'd just buy a Catcams 4900365 and a new set of buckets. That will work well with the rest of the engine.

[lagonda 41]

Hi

 Unfortunately Techniprofil seem to have both poor feedback generally, and specifically in regard to 205 GTi camshaft work, so see no point in contacting them.

 

  Catcams are actually based in Belgium , which at least rules out the Brexit induced bollocks of customs duty etc. Problem there, though, is the 4900365 cam is for the 1.9, and I'm trying to get way from a 1.9 camshaft for my 1.6! Annoyingly they list a 105bhp cam for the early 1.6, otherwise all 1.9!

 

  I'd appreciate details of those OE cam lobe measurements, 1.6 and 1.9 so that I can be sure any proposed purchase is genuinely 1.6.

[petert 549]

If you've got the compression and you increase the duration, it doesn't matter whether it's a 1.6 or 1.9. If you look at the Catcams site, there is a listing under XU5J for 4900265. It is in fact, identical to the 4900365. It's possibly just a matter of where you're going to have the thrust controlled, and thus the casting used.

 

You'll notice that for XU5J application it requires different valve springs. If you have a genuine 1.9 head, with 1.9 valve springs, you can use the OEM parts.

Edited January 21, 2022 by petert

[Thijs_Rallye 86 4 Cars]

7 hours ago, lagonda said:

  I'd appreciate details of those OE cam lobe measurements, 1.6 and 1.9 so that I can be sure any proposed purchase is genuinely 1.6.

Honestly give Catcams a call or drop them an email. I think they list about 10% of all the cams they make. I've visited them in person last year and was more than impressed about their know how and machine park. And they are friendly on top of that .

 

Measuring a camshaft was about 100 or 150 euro per cam. It might well be that they can compensate for the wear of the cam you own as well.

[lagonda 41]

Thanks, seems Cat Cams are the ones to go to.

 

Thanks Peter .... funnily enough I checked that out last night and discovered the technical specs of their 180A cam are identical to theirs for the 1.9.

 

I noted the 180A cam needs other parts supplied for it to suit, whereas the 1.9 was a straight fit, so as you say, it seems the 1.9 head differs, springs etc. That said, I thought my (late 1989 B6D) head was identical to 1.9 other than the cam ... maybe the springs changed with the larger valve head, as oppose to 1.6 / 1.9?

 

This still leaves me with the same basic concern. My 1.9 cam is fine condition wise, so will I see a worthwhile improvement if I fit the Cat Cams shaft?