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Gohn

Turbo Diesel No Fire, Bleeding/Priming?

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Gohn

I've kind of come to a standstill and am hoping an experienced D or DT or STDT owner will put me straight

mines '93 with the little primer button on top of the filter (instead of the fantastic separate hand bulb to advance the fuel that came on the late non-turbo versions)

put in and connected up the fuel feed/return lines, filter, pump, injector lines

opened the injector pump at the return banjo pipe and filled it up with diesel,

checked the filter at the Entree banjo pipe and all looks full

when I connect a clear hose to the filter bleed screw on the bottom, I get plenty of diesel running out but also a fairly steady stream of air bubbles

maybe that's air being sucked in and then pushed straight back down the bleed hose ?

connecting the battery and cranking I get diesel and some bubbles out of the pipe/injector unions on 1, 2, and 4 (counting from flywheel as peugeot does)

not much action from injector 3

And no ignition

I thought maybe the primer button on the filter might have been dodgy so I swapped it for a spare (while noticing the filter was full) and gave it a couple hundred pumps

and tried cranking again

just diesel and some bubbles mostly out of 1 and 4

the books (haynes and porters) suggest anything '93 plus is self bleeding from pump to injectors

so if the filter's topped, the injection pump's topped, there should be diesel from tank to injectors

if its self bleeding from there, why is there no ignition ?

 

(also, ruling out another possibility: my stop solenoid is brand new and I also checked the electric wire to it to make sure its getting current thru)

 

with two good batteries I've cranked/swapped/charged a few times

maybe the system just takes longer to prime than I expected ?

my only plan from here is to keep cranking at intervals, with the injector pipe unions loosened . when I see a nice flow I'll sinc them up and hope it fires

 

but any tips/suggestions will be greatly appreciated

fire1.JPG

fire2.JPG

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Ozymandis

Throw away that blue vaccum hose your using as leak off pipe it is NOT suitable and will leak PDQ, get the correct stuff.

 

Take the main inlet pipe off the injection pump inlet banjo and pump away until bubble free diesel comes through, re install the pipe hold the throttle pedal down with all 4 injector pipe inlet nuts loose and crank untill diesel starts leaking from them, re tighten the unions, throttle open and crank, if it wont fire then, take note of any smoke, if its a white  cloud then your bled fine but something else is wrong eg pumps timed incorrectly eg 180 degrees out, ask if you need any advice on that aspect.

 

Or do the same thing but unscrew the solenoid and bleed the air out of there rather than the rubber pipe from the filter, eithers fine.

 

If squirts of  diesel wont come out of the injection pump inlet pipe/solenoid hole ,the primers failed and needs an o ring kit in it. This is common and an easy fix.

 

How I personally do it with the system you have is to use an external pump/primer, the rugby ball looking type, and put that on the inlet pipe of the injection pump/outlet pipe of the filter and use that to draw the initial charge of diesel through the filter and fuel heater assembly at the botton  rear of the block, then reinstall the pipe to the banjo union and use the starter motor. Those primers You have are not much cop when a few years old and notorious for problems. They never get used then suddenly your pumping hundreds of times and the seals fail allowing air to bleed past.

 

If there is doubt over the solenoid activation, unscrew it and take the plunger out then screw it back in and try, if it works You can stop the engine with the manual stop lever on top of the pump. Some cheapo copy solenoids are made so you cant remove the plunger, an old original ones your friend in that case even if it failed electrically your only using it to plug the hole.

 

Filling the pump through the leak off unions a waste of effort all the airs in the feed piping/fuel heater/filter assembly. The lift pumps a seperate chamber to the main body of the pump.

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Ozymandis

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/8mm-Manual-Oil-Pump-Fuel-Primer-Diesel-Petrol-Gas-Priming-Valves-Oiler-Accessory/224150180101?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item3430645105:g:rngAAOSw0GlfV4B8&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACcBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90Z278x5ickkgCVySCgrNFPU8Iu85TabMNKUQxAUUNhrwTzAhDKWSbpYcOY4MNtSbMzlDuYZjbw41rKIj1Uu8DvIOJg%2FXWU5aN%2B6tTOWw8ACVqaln8IbsRRSzFdsDamR7JKf7x1eeb96rlS0Ui%2FrnF3oEFlwouhXKM9UFfuqkEMI87bs3Kc5C3ue2YwKo5PXDOukChKKciksigtfet%2BX3otEwei46lAnW3vZiRVF8Eym4bGUKsFM4NJUSB4h6dWGosmGOG481bluCeSjXFezpXC7NrpM7O9B2N9R0eOlmIaUU66VTUchJ1HeZDTDfXwwBlwdGF6615N5E35oS%2F3QImfuhHtPtAyEDpts0RxEBiNenVmrpxN9RnXQsiWiSQqJCY0K%2FkZIAxM1XFn2PwAXV0ph31vwx3lLSweXVd7xPpFSR4TcTTNAPJPXKkm%2FSM3VbrkJ2sjmsgk786BmwKrmf%2F5TKxODUj9C1w3emNYLy%2BJB4CXy6dH8UbfG8%2B1HBomq2zbEMEIxQqQ4PPg4rKrNj%2FBuVye0kZ07FxLdncqC1WJdGPnjXCvYi%2BDD907Aau%2FekhsyDQznqdJ2XO1VZXO1NhC3b313D4ijWyxqTLSAeKwtLssMc%2FX0S1Tm%2FWW1gRzRQBLisaDCG933cN%2FOqArFUFHGQYUpRwuyVT3oQGv0FO9jYbejp%2FoYvUdWpv0J7MVopl0gzQGNlq6fGixeQEHXyDLoI%2FcHN5IvauS2lHwM9%2F7qDgupX7NVnfX%2BpYVzVdXmLLWbeBWPKziUDvYx9C6hgifNzbGPYvSKvw%3D%3D|cksum%3A224150180101f91c8204bd3e408b9b7989e4d42d6a99|ampid%3APL_CLK|clp%3A2334524&frcectupt=true

 

 

Something like this is ideal, dont get too anal about a few bubbles they are always present, so long as the main body of fuels flowing Your good.

Continually flattening the battery trying to use the internal transfer pumps a recipe for a new starter motor, use this pump or what ever you can rig up

 

if Your ambient temperatures not high, confirm the heater plug systems working, they dont start at all well without them, and produce dense white smoke.

 

Edited by Ozymandis

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Gohn

thanks jay,

 

first off, changed the return hoses to the black braided stuff you recommended

 

and also, I hear what you say about overcranking the little starter motor, not keen on that idea

 

regarding priming, what you suggest is what I've done on my D

but its not even nearly working on this

NOT EVEN CLOSE

as you say the TD system has the fuel going from tank to back of block to heat thru, then over to the filter and then to the pump.

 

after all my effort its:

no fuel in the filter, not much fuel to the pump and bubbles on the injector unions

its becoming very frustrating, going backwards and getting messy

 

got the little hand bulb suggested and connected it on the filter OUT line

this should pull diesel up into the filter and out the filter OUT line ready to go into the IN pump banjo right ?

could not get any diesel thru into the filter at all. the bulb, once compressed just wont release. for some reason the filter just holds the vacuum

I've heard others had their IN / OUT lines mixed but I've checked and I am going in the correct filter banjo and out the correct filter banjo

 

so then tried to bypass the filter to see if I can get diesel into my pump direct

after one pump of the hand bulb, the pump wont take in any diesel at all

tried loosening the pump return banjo nut figuring that if there's air in the pump preventing diesel coming in, with the RTN banjo open it will release the air as the diesel flows in thru the IN banjo.

still wont work

 

an old diesel mechanic suggested I open the bleed screw on the pump

I did not know they had one

my pump came rebuilt with all the connections/nuts sealed with yellow

 

wont be cranking the starter until Im confident there's diesel in the pump

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Gohn

bypassing the filter altogether

i put the bulb on a line from the tank, then to bulb, then to IN line

that connected to IN banjo on the Injection pump

loosened the banjo nut and when I pump the bulb I get diesel flowing out the union

when I tighten up that nut and loosen the injection pump RTN banjo nut and pump the bulb

I get diesel out the RTN banjo nut

double checking I take off the RTN banjo and look into the inj pump

it looks full of diesel

 

far as I know:

the engine is timed correctly, checked before installation and all timing bolts lining up

the stop solenoid wire seems to have power, I checked with a little circuit tester

the glow plug control unit seems to be coming on and clicking off

the filter is bypassed so it can't be preventing ignition

and the injection pump looks full of diesel

 

pretty much out of ideas

calling the pump rebuilder for any suggestions and to see if there is a bleed nut

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Gohn

the stop solenoid is brand new

but pulled it out to check if I could take out the centre as suggested

 

doesn't look like there's any way of pulling out the centre without wrecking it

maybe its one of the cheapo versions ?

 

 

 

stopsol.JPG

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pug_ham

How old are the main fuel supply hoses through the engine bay to the filter?

 

On my STDT when I had it, these started to perish with age & eventually were drawing in enough air for the car to loose power & finally refuse to start at all.

 

In the end I swapped all the filter bowl & thermostat housing end for the later style from a 306 diesel with the small built in filter bowl & new piping from the rigid fuel pipes on the bulkhead.

 

The pump draws fuel at a much higher rate than the priming bulb so these might not always show a problem in the supply hoses imo.

 

g

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Gohn

how do I check the glow plug circuit apart from turning on the key and listening for the click ?

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pug_ham

Put a multimeter on the main wire to the plug (@ #2 plug) & see what voltage you have.

 

Check your glowplugs aren't dead by touching the top of them with a decent piece of wire direct from the battery, if you get a spark on contact they are generally good but if you get nothing, they are dead.

 

g

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Gohn

the fuel supply hoses are three shortish sections

the fuel supply hose from firewall to block is new, then block to pipe (that runs along front of scuttle panel) is original, then other end of the pipe to filter is original, then from filter to inj pump is new

if I EVER see the light at the end of this tunnel, I have already decided to do the same filter change you did

got one on my D and its easier to access/do a change

and I dont need the cluster at the back of the block just to heat deisel I dont need heated

 

I noticed Jay said the pump has separate chambers, so if Im just looking in the top or checking if its full by cracking banjo unions isn't that pointless ?

 

 

 

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Gohn

I cant check the line with a multimetre as I dont own one

 

but on the plus side, my glowplugs are brand new so cant be them

 

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pug_ham
1 hour ago, Gohn said:

the fuel supply hose from firewall to block is new, then block to pipe (that runs along front of scuttle panel) is original, then other end of the pipe to filter is original, then from filter to inj pump is new

OK, the block to pipe was the piece that had gone on mine, the longest piece of pipe iirc but when I looked, all of it was in a similar condition so I put all new hose on & swapped the filter housing after hearing horror stories about the original filter bowl head failing & a rebuild kit not being available for this particular type anymore.

 

g

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Gohn

yeah I've heard similar but figured I'd do the swap somewhere later on

(change rear block coolant elbow to base model one,

remove separate filter and remove thermostat

install thermostat/filter single unit,

clear the clusterf*** at the back of the block and run fuel line from bulkhead direct to filter)

 

spoke to the gent rebuilt the injection pump

it is, as the book says, self bleeding

there is NO bleed screw or nut as on DPA or other pumps

once you have fuel to the injection pump IN banjo its self priming from there

so crank the starter motor

the pump should, ahem SHOULD, pull the diesel thru and purge/push the air out thru the loosened injector unions

diesel coming in pushing the air out

once the fuel stream out the unions is clear of all the froth, tighten the unions and crank for ignition

also, even in a warm environment, you do need the glow plugs to be working to get ignition

 

I have the feeling mine should have done this days ago

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Ozymandis

Thats a modern solenoid without a removable plunger, remove it again and reconnect the terminal, hold it against a clean bit of earthed metal eg the pump body and get someone to turn the ignition to the run posistion a few times, it will be obvious if it works or not.

 

Glow plugs fail both open and short circuit, i have an expensive tester it just gathers dust, over the years i realised the only sure test is to remove them and try them on a battery with a jump lead, its obvious if they do or dont work , just be wary of the hot end ,do it on a concrete floor or outside.

 

To test their electrical supply find the main supply lead where it joins the plug interconnect harness on the engine,  remove the engine end,  connect it to one of your known good plugs from the previous test, hold that against a good earth on the head or block with pliers or suchlike and get someone to key it to the glow plug posistion it will be obvious if it works or not.

 

(They will start with  a couple of failed plugs, running a bit rough for a few seconds.)

 

To test a suspect fuel system, you need a temporary supply, eg a gallon can , or a plastic bottle of diesel, put temporary feed and return pipes onto the injection pump with your rugby ball inline with the feed, prime the system from that and see if she will start.

 

If she wont go after doing all that then its a pump fault, timed incorrectly or a mechanical fault eg valves, pistons, rings ,bores.

 

If she will go then its , pipes, filter, primer, heater or tank pickup blocked

NB I have twice seen the in tank pickup gauze blocked on a Diesel 205, I once  fired compressed air down the feed pipe in the engine bay and it blew the feka off into the bottom of the tank and she fired up easily then and is still rolling about in there a dozen years later.(dirty biodiesel)

 

 

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Gohn

Have sorted out a few problems now

jay's stop solenoid test was bang on

there were two main problems both working to confuse at once

 

1. the filter is stuffed,

just wont allow any flow thru at all, I've tried many times with bulb on either side, without.

I dont know if this is the common failure with these filters or its usually just the pump button wont work anymore

either way, it wont let fuel thru so I've decided to bring forward the change to later style filter system

 

2. the stop solenoid wire was rubbish,

on the first crank, I disconnected it to pump oil thru the engine as suggested by the book

but because I dont know much about electrics, just left it hanging down and touching the pump/pipes, where it tried to make a circuit ? and got hot, so it melted the insulation and from then on was corrupting the current flow

so sometimes it was activating the plunger, sometimes not

it would have been less confusing if it was getting no signal at all, at least then I'm not going round in circles testing it and getting a signal thru

anyhow, replaced all that wiring back to the fuse board

 

graham, you mentioned you also did the swap to the later 306 filter/thermostat system, what did you do for the thermostat to oil filter coolant pipes ?

no problem re rigging the lower back of the block, the filter and fuel lines, but not sure about those two coolant lines that run thru the oil filter to cool the oil

I'd like to keep those if I can cause I like the idea of cooling my turbo oil

 

thanks all round

 

 

stopsolwire.JPG

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Gohn

oh yeah,

 

it sounds real good, better even than the D

 

and as a stopgap I got a $5 filter and slotted that in as I dont like the idea of running without some particle protection

 

but it was too restrictive I think, not sure, but it caused a steady stream of bubbles into the line and when I took it out again its smooth

 

maybe the diesel is just too thick for crappy little cheap filters ?

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Ozymandis
On 10/13/2020 at 5:04 PM, Ozymandis said:

dont get too anal about a few bubbles they are always present

 

Glad Your up and running.

 

The radiator top hose with the oil cooler integrated into it is unique to the earlier thermostat housing style of the TD, the later housing with the plastic fuel heater/filter never had the cooler arrangement.

 

Its simplest to replace the filter arrangement you have rather than convert the whole fuel system  to the non-turbo type.

 

Plenty of filter/primer heads that will replace your knackered one cheap enough rather than all that messing about?

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Diesel-Filter-primer-head-early-Vauxhall-V-W/113735763322?hash=item1a7b2e057a:g:oWIAAOSw8a9cSup2

This could fit easy enough?

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Diesel-Fuel-Filter-Housing-Primer-Pump-Cap-Fit-for-Nissan-Patrol-GU-Y61-ZD30-gl/353109980174?hash=item5236feb40e:g:8H8AAOSwsrhe6gvz

Or this Jap style one ,alter the bracket?

 

etc plenty of different ones for under 20quid on fleabay, I have no problem whatsoever with either the older or newer style systems, in fact I have had two of the newer style towed in, because the plastic pipe stub snapped off the filter lid, as the plastic ages its becoming brittle, so thinking about it I prefer the older style for longevity.

Edited by Ozymandis

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pug_ham
On 10/16/2020 at 7:46 AM, Gohn said:

graham, you mentioned you also did the swap to the later 306 filter/thermostat system, what did you do for the thermostat to oil filter coolant pipes ?

no problem re rigging the lower back of the block, the filter and fuel lines, but not sure about those two coolant lines that run thru the oil filter to cool the oil

I'd like to keep those if I can cause I like the idea of cooling my turbo oil

 

It's actually a heat exchanger to warm the oil quicker rather than an oil cooler.

 

I honestly can't remember what I did to the top hose but at most I'd say I trimmed the thermostat housing end of the hose a little to allow for the extra but I don't think there was much difference between the two types of thermostat housings overall.

 

You've got me thinking & after looking through catcar.info to see the set up on the XUD7T, I can't find the top hose assembly for it shown but I can find the later type filter & thermostat housing for the 205 D on there here, along with the hoses to the filter housing exchanger for the XUD7T (under lubrication here) and the hoses are fitted separately to the thermostat housing and I don't think I changed them at all.  Does the feed to the filter come off the top hose on your car? It's 13 years since I did it!

 

My original topic where I did the swap is here but I don't go into much detail about how much I had to change things to get it all done so I guess very little needed to be changed.

 

g

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Gohn

thanks graham,

I'd explored that convert over option,

-then got my TD filter going (my fault, I had one of the rubber seals backwards and on top of the filter instead of beneath which prevented any flow)

-then I found out changing to a GTi subby/front end means you need to move your front brake brackets (Im doing a proper article for reference so no one else finds this out at the END making it much harder)

-then I discovered my alternator was stuffed and had wrecked my battery

- its fighting me all the way to rego

 

anyway, checked your schematics, had another look in real life

scratched my head

my 1994 D thermostat has only 2 coolant hose connections. One at the back coming from around the block, and one at the front to the top hose/radiator

my TD has 3. The back and front ones PLUS one more underneath at the front which comes from the heat exchanger. And that's the one I'm missing if I still wanted to do the convert over.

on your D diagram, part #5 actually comes in two versions

#1336E8 - with 1 hose connection

and #1336C9 - with 2

finally, I checked with the your part numbers and got some pics

probly when you did your conversion, your D thermostat already had the three connections and you wouldn't have known there was another version with only two ?

be ordering one of those double bungers on fleabay shortly

might not use it but it'll be there if needed

thanks again

 

 

 

#1336E8.png

#1336C9.png

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pug_ham

That sounds familiar to be honest.

 

Yeah, the basic D doesn't have an oil / water heat exchanger so the thermostat cap will only have the single outlet, I even mention this in my topic;

Quote

 I swapped the cap for one with an oil water heat exchanger pipe

The only downside to the smaller filters in the later thermostat housing is they need changing more often, I'd do them every oil change with them being cheap to buy & easy to swap.

 

g

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