throttle sensor for 8V emerald build

[Telf 222 2 Cars]

I've decided to fit an emerald ECU to my rebuild and after a search of the net and forums I think!?! that I need a throttle sensor from a 306 GTI to replace the TPS.

 

Can anybody confirm or deny please?

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Not the best thing, Use a TPS from Penny & Giles, contactless 

[Telf 222 2 Cars]

hi miles, what is the difference between the 2?

 

I was under the impression that I could fit a throttle sensor and set its max/min point on the emerald- if that's so then what would be the advantage of the penny and giles?

 

thanks

 

paul

[dcc 855]

Im not sure the 8v tps would work, as its a on off switch from memory. The gti6 sensor has been done many times and uses an adapter plate to mount. Miles offers a tb adapter to run a complete gti6 tb, though a tad expensive for a cheap homebrew motor. You can probably make an adapter plate yourself (bonus of larger body and a modern idle control).

 

Not sure if you're restricted, but you're not mega £££ away from running throttle bodies...

[jackherer 543]

The 8v one is indeed a switch only, this is why Paul is looking to replace it. Is there no OEM TPS that will fit without an adaptor? What TPS does the MAP sensor based ECU from the ZX (MP3.1?) use?

 

12 minutes ago, dcc said:

Not sure if you're restricted, but you're not mega £££ away from running throttle bodies...

Haha it's the slippery slope of modifications leading to further modifications, I warned Paul about this! Did I mention I have half a set of throttle bodies spare Paul?

[jackherer 543]

Further to that thought I just looked up the BX GTI part number, they changed from the 8v style switch to a proper TPS around 1993 but using the same Mi16 style throttle body.

 

The part number for the later BX is 1628 L1, does that mean it will fit straight onto a 205 with no adapter?

 

[Anthony 1,000]

Not sure about the BX one (the one in the photo above subjectively looks too small, similar to a GTi-6 style one) but I can confirm that the ZX 1.9i Volcane TPS has the same bolt spacing but a different fitting on the end of the throttle spindle (it's a flat rather than the D shape of a 205).  Infuriating really as the throttle body itself is otherwise identical to a GTi one and the inlet manifold is nigh-on identical to a late 205 GTi CAT inlet other than the map takeoff.

[jackherer 543]

Thanks Anthony. I just did a search and read a load of old threads. I'm really surprised there isn't an OEM pot that directly fits the GTI TB, given that the standard switch was fitted to all sorts of cars, BMW, Ford, Alfa, GM etc. but I can see it's been discussed several times before.

[welshpug 1,621]

should not be hard to make the spindle flat instead of D shaped, a file surely would make short work of it an allow the zx sensor to fit straight on.

[Anthony 1,000]

Should work Mei - I just need to put the two side by side to check that the flat on the D is in the same orientation as the flat on the ZX spindle, otherwise you're liable to end up running out of travel on the TPS.

 

Annoyingly, I keep forgetting to do it whenever I'm at the workshop where my 205 I'm converting to MP3.1 (and has the ZX inlet/TB fitted) is stored!

[Telf 222 2 Cars]

Thanks for the replies all. I've done a bit of research and cant see any real difference between some of the Bosch sensors and the Penny and Giles mentioned earlier other than the price difference.

 

As a fully qualified avionics engineer I'm a little perplexed, a potentiometer is a potentiometer, so what makes a P&G better than a Bosch?

 

P&G make a lot of aircraft parts that go through a 3 stage quality check- because aircraft parts failing has serious consequence, but for road car application I cannot see any reason to buy from them, I wonder if they are passing the costs on to an application that doesn't warrant it.

The part will not be more accurate in any real sense in my experience and unlikely to be any more reliable.

 

[opticaltrigger 52]

37 minutes ago, Telf said:

Thanks for the replies all. I've done a bit of research and cant see any real difference between some of the Bosch sensors and the Penny and Giles mentioned earlier other than the price difference.

 

As a fully qualified avionics engineer I'm a little perplexed, a potentiometer is a potentiometer, so what makes a P&G better than a Bosch?

 

P&G make a lot of aircraft parts that go through a 3 stage quality check- because aircraft parts failing has serious consequence, but for road car application I cannot see any reason to buy from them, I wonder if they are passing the costs on to an application that doesn't warrant it.

The part will not be more accurate in any real sense in my experience and unlikely to be any more reliable.

 

I couldn't agree more with you Telf, there both handling the same signal and most probably with exactly the same materials and construction methodology to. In fact I would go so far as to say, it wouldn't be surprising to hear they undergo a very similar QC process to each other as well.

 

Recently however, on a completely separate project working with Bosch wide band's... There does appears to be a different approach to the testing of these at manufacture.

There seems to be some noises out there which suggest that the wide band's which go to OEM end users tend to be more sharp in terms of accuracy, and indeed do seem to stay on point for longer, where the big auto parts market ones, from the same manufacturer, do not..... Perhaps the "Monday morning" ones go one way and the "Friday afternooners", so to say, go the other. Which suggests that there are some unsavoury things that go on at source...... Worrying,,, from many perspectives.

So I think your thought's on passing the costs on are possibly some where near the mark.

 

Anyway all the very best mate.

O.T.

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by opticaltrigger

[hoodygoodwood 70 3 Cars]

I have a modified 1905 cc 8V engine running on Omex , I have a Bosch 306 GTI/6 TPS mounted on a home made adaptor plate , got a new in box one off Ebay for about £25 . It fits the D on the throttle body spindle perfectly .

[Telf 222 2 Cars]

cheers miles,

 

ive actually ordered the one pictured above that Kieran listed, Whilst im thinking about it does anybody have a Map for an emerald ECU for a 8V so I've got a starting point to get it running ?

 

[ArthurH 5]

Paul, my son will have the map for an 8v 1.6 on his K6 if that is of any use to you?

[Telf 222 2 Cars]

hi Arthur, Emerald have loaded a base map onto the ECU when I took it for refurb so im good thanks. Thanks for the offer though.

[ArthurH 5]

Having read this thread, I thought I'd better check which sensor my Son has fitted to his 8v 1.6.  From the photos, you can see the mounting is obviously homemade.  Do the part number help anyone identify it for me?   I was unpleasantly surprised having taken it off for the photo, that there is no positive location for the sensor in terms of rotation.  How critical is that?

[welshpug 1,621]

looks like a penny and giles type sensor commonly found on jenvey throttle bodies.

[jackherer 543]

It's the same fitment as the Colvern ones that Jenvey and Emerald supply. IIRC you have an Emerald which is why that will have been fitted.

 

Recently I discovered that it is a Rover part that they have based them on. I bought a brand new OEM Rover TPS for £17 delivered and it works much better than the £70+ Colvern ones ever did. I was going to buy one of the P&G ones you have but they are very expensive and two people I've spoken to who have them have had failures so I'm not sure it is worth the price. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131592980347

[jackherer 543]

BTW If you removed it and it goes back in a different position you'll need to go into the Emerald software and recalibrate it.

[Tom Fenton 1,524]

12 minutes ago, jackherer said:

It's the same fitment as the Colvern ones that Jenvey and Emerald supply. IIRC you have an Emerald which is why that will have been fitted.

 

Recently I discovered that it is a Rover part that they have based them on. I bought a brand new OEM Rover TPS for £17 delivered and it works much better than the £70+ Colvern ones ever did. I was going to buy one of the P&G ones you have but they are very expensive and two people I've spoken to who have them have had failures so I'm not sure it is worth the price. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131592980347

Good info, thanks for sharing. I've had a Colvern go man down on me and they are not cheap!!

[ArthurH 5]

Thanks Mei and Kieran.  So this is a 'proper' sensor, not just an on/off switch as per original fitment?  I can probably get it very close to where it was by lining up the part number through the mounting plate hole as per my first photo before I undid the two fixing screws (this could be a blessing as I discovered one was loose anyway ).

 

Yes, we have a K6, and was planning on a rolling road session to remap following the head skim/CR increase.

 

One thing my son had struggled with throughout last season (which is why I had assumed we had the original switch), was massive throttle oversensitivity.  Trying to drive the car back onto the trailer was far more heart stopping than sliding through Paddock in the wet.  Just a fraction of throttle gave full revs.  I was hoping this could be addressed during the remapping - but perhaps there is a fault?

[jackherer 543]

2 hours ago, Tom Fenton said:

Good info, thanks for sharing. I've had a Colvern go man down on me and they are not cheap!!

No problem. I've had two Colverns fail, one started to twitch between load sites mid mapping session which was bloody inconvenient and the brand new replacement started to seize up and feel like a sticky throttle cable.

 

The Rover one has made it a pleasure to drive at low throttle openings in a way it never managed with a Colvern. It feels much more positively attached to the throttle spindle too.

 

43 minutes ago, ArthurH said:

So this is a 'proper' sensor, not just an on/off switch as per original fitment?

Yes! A proper ECU needs a proper sensor

 

Don't worry too much about aligning it, just get it close then plug the laptop in, the calibration is simple to do and takes 30 seconds. If you're getting it mapped then calibrating the throttle sensor is basically step 1 of that process.

 

The throttle sensor probably wont affect the over sensitivity you're describing, for that to happen too much air must be getting past the throttle plate. Is that an original throttle? I think it is but it has maybe had some outlet tubes removed? And is the quadrant that the cable attaches to original too? This is an original TB and TPSwitch for reference:

 

[welshpug 1,621]

big part of the sensitivity is in the mapping, it seems very few mappers take the time to do a complete map as they think 'oh racecar, they live at w.o.t'

sorting out the rest of the map makes such a difference to fuel consumption, engine longevity, not to mention manners.

[ArthurH 5]

Thanks Kieran And Mei.  Having see your picture of the standard throttle, I thought I'd better post my son's...