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welshpug

there's plenty that will work, but also not difficult to get a piston made to spec.

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Tuubax

Just did some dynosessions with my 205 GTi with EW10J4S. Specs are:

100% stock head and cams, also timing. VVT active.

Wiseco 8.5 pistons and K1 rods. Otherwise all stock. TB is VW 1.8T 60mm DBW. Original one is a rotational solenoid, VERY difficult to get acting stable.

Borg Warner EFR7064 and 1300cc injectors. 

AEM Infinity 506 ECU

 

Best pull was: 

495Nm@4500RPM, 1.2bar boost

380bhp@6000RPM, 1bar boost

 

Exhaust cam needs some timing adjustment so we can get EFR spool as it should. It really should produce 1bar@3000.  

 

After that, we started to lower the torque that gearbox won´t break. Too late. :D 

BE4R crushed it´s fourth gear on rollers after about 10hrs. Now I´m planning to do it RWD. Can´t really figure out proper transversial gearbox to this. After camjob and setting boost to proper levels, there´s no chance to get anything tough enough... 

 

Must say that this engine is sweet :)

 

 

IMG_20190430_154631.jpg

IMG_20190428_012908.jpg

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SRDT

It's a EW so you can try to fit a ML6C, it's rated at 370 N.m so 495 N.m is still too much but only by 134% instead of 198% with the BE4.

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dcc

A friend had a 700+ bhp 206 turbo with an ml6c fitted. Had a tranx ml5c diff iirc

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Tuubax
5 hours ago, dcc said:

A friend had a 700+ bhp 206 turbo with an ml6c fitted. Had a tranx ml5c diff iirc

Please tell me more. 

With what recipe is used to get 700+hp and how much torque? 

And did ML5C diff fit directly into the box? 

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welshpug

rods and pistons, solid tappet head with catcams, dp engineering manifold and downpipe, some rather large turbocharger.   mapped in the Netherlands.

 

diff almost fitted, iirc the crownwheel holes were a different size

 

im sure dan could find more specific details if you need.

Edited by welshpug

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Tuubax
1 hour ago, welshpug said:

rods and pistons, solid tappet head with catcams, dp engineering manifold and downpipe, some rather large turbocharger.   mapped in the Netherlands.

 

diff almost fitted, iirc the crownwheel holes were a different size

 

im sure dan could find more specific details if you need.

Sounds interesting! 

We have a shopcar project, BMW E46 Driftcar, which need reliable and powerful engine. Guess what came into mind! 

How about the block rigidity, when getting about 600Nm torque? That should be realistic on my setup. I mean, being "open-deck", do liners need support?

 

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welshpug

the liners are cast into the block and the mains are a ladder so its inherently much stiffer than the xu, Sandy commented on his EW5 special that the sound was quite different, even with a standard xu5 crank running to 8k +!  less vibration in it.

 

there were some issues with Ryan's oil system, seemed to pump a hell of a lot of oil into the cam galleries, not sure what the final outcome was, Sandy has also had issues but on full race builds and I'm not sure if he would divulge his solutions being that he has spent a lot of time and money into them for customers.

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somervillearron

i have a peugot 407 coupe with the 2.2 ew12j4s i am wondering will the cams from a ew104s fit the 124s? ie these ones https://www.tpms-shop.fr/206-rc/1122-arbre-a-cames-cat-cams-peugeot-206-20-16s-ew10j4s-256-degres-la-paire.html

 

the car currently has 161hp and 64k miles on it and i was wondering what the best power upgrades would be? ive just come from a 230bhp diesel so to be honest the peugot feels gutless although very nice looking you wouldnt beleive its a 2.2 if it didnt say so on the sticker on the drivers door

 

mechanically the car is perfect no issues what so ever and if you rev it out it will go ive had 130 out of it so far

 

is there any parts i can take of the c4 vtr or the 206 gti 180 for a easy power upgrade i have looked at remaps but you only get 10bhp if that!

i was thinking of a cold air feed and exhaust but you can only get so far that way

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jackherer

The only way to make a normally aspirated petrol engine drive like a similar size turbodiesel is to add a turbo!

 

9 minutes ago, somervillearron said:

is there any parts i can take of the c4 vtr or the 206 gti 180

The C4 VTR has a 136bhp EW10J4 engine, the 180bhp EW10J4S was in the VTS. They're much rarer than the 206 180 though.

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somervillearron
5 minutes ago, jackherer said:

The only way to make a normally aspirated petrol engine drive like a similar size turbodiesel is to add a turbo!

 

The C4 VTR has a 136bhp EW10J4 engine, the 180bhp EW10J4S was in the VTS. They're much rarer than the 206 180 though.

so is there anything i can take out of the 180? i have not been able to find any reasonably priced turbo manifolds for these engines,could someone help!

 

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jackherer

DP Engineering sell a turbo manifold for the EW, it is expensive but if you work out how much you're spending per BHP it'll be much better value than NA tuning.

 

Your best bet has to be swapping your 407 Coupe for one with a 3.0 V6 surely?

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SRDT

The cam phasing on the EW12J4 is ON/OFF (VTC) but on the EW10J4S it's progressive (VVT).

There is one oil gallery on a VTC camshaft and two on a VVT one.

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speaksgeek

So, again to bang on about dry sumps.

My EW10J4S had a failure last year, just a month or so before Pug1Off completed my dry sump kit. I put the engine in a corner, and grabbed a new one from a donor car.

I recently made some time to pull the engine down and see what broke.

 

It matches up with the comment Sandy made at the start, that the oil pump is one of the key weaknesses of the EW.

 

The rest of the engine wasn't actually too bad, lots of worn bearings on both the rods and crank, but no real damage that I can see. Cams seemed to survive without any issues.

 

 

 

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dcc

Any chance of a bit more information:

 

What was mileage of your engine?

What was rpm of engine when it died?

What was purpose of the engine prior to failure? I.e. Race car?

What grade oil do you run?

Any oil cooler?

Any additional work to factory oil breathers?

 

Cheers

Dan

 

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speaksgeek
12 hours ago, dcc said:

Any chance of a bit more information:

 

What was mileage of your engine?

What was rpm of engine when it died?

What was purpose of the engine prior to failure? I.e. Race car?

What grade oil do you run?

Any oil cooler?

Any additional work to factory oil breathers?

 

Cheers

Dan

 

- Approx 120k km (75k miles)

- Peak RPM 1s before failure was 7530rpm, no gear change or clutch dip

- Race car

- I think I was running factory 5w-40 Total 9000 oil at the time

- Setrab 16 row oil cooler, oil temps were 112ºC

- Running ITB's from jenvey, but I'd modified their manifold to retain the factory breathers on the inlet side, running to a catch can, which was vented to atmosphere, and drained back to sump similar to factory.

 

As I mentioned a couple of pages back, since I installed a logging dash, I'd been seeing very brief oil pressure drops under very heavy braking (end of straights to tight corners). This was odd, as I have a peugeot sport baffled sump, and on inspection there was nothing wrong with it, trap doors are still intact and facing the correct ways, pickup is still deep in the rear well. This had been happening for 3-4 track days up to the failure.

There's a chance that had always been happening, but the factory ECU meant I didn't know about it, or maybe I was braking harder as I improved my lap times...

 

There's plenty of bearing material in the sump now, but I couldn't say whether the bearing failure caused the oil pump to bind, or vice versa.

I've sort of moved past figuring out blame, and just pleased I've got a dry sump that should solve any oiling issues from now.

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dcc

Cheers for that, interesting and good to know. What I had read was the oil pump failure is only normally an issue on engines with sustained high revs. 

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speaksgeek

There's no question that I had been running it a bit higher than the 7300 factory limiter for a few track days, but I didn't think I was pushing it particularly hard.

 

10 minutes ago, dcc said:

Cheers for that, interesting and good to know. What I had read was the oil pump failure is only normally an issue on engines with sustained high revs. 

 

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Darko_BG

Engine from 206 s16 and 406 2.0 16v are same?

I have cams from 306 gti 6,is it posible to fit it in ew engine,exhaust manifold i found from 307 180 HP,and what are sugestions for intake manifold?

To find a RC manifold and try to convert electric TB to mechanical,or ew12 manifold and leave mu trottle body?

I would stay on N/A engine just add him some extra power.

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dcc

the 206 's16' i think you refer to is the Ew engine base, the 406 could be either Xu or EW, depending on model and year. I think there was a cross over period.

 

I don't think you can use the 306 cams, from memory they have the same blanks but there was a reason as to why they don't fit. I personally haven't checked / tried to fit a 306 cam in to an EW but I do have a few spare EW heads and a few XU10J4RS cams. The main issue I can think of is the drive for the vacuum pump on the Xu10J4RS.

 

307 180 bhp is an EW10J4s afaik - not sure if you have further emission controls on the version you're looking at. The manifold should fit - obviously the standard EW downpipe flange will be in a different location so that would need adjusting.

 

I read that the EW12 manifold is the ideal choice for a standard inlet due to its length. adapting to cable throttle isn't a big issue, but the throttle body doesn't bolt straight on, would probably need an adapter bracket. the biggest issue is the space for the manifold from what I had seen.

 

What is your base engine and in what car body?

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ammm84
On 1/4/2021 at 3:35 PM, dcc said:

the 206 's16' i think you refer to is the Ew engine base, the 406 could be either Xu or EW, depending on model and year. I think there was a cross over period.

 

I don't think you can use the 306 cams, from memory they have the same blanks but there was a reason as to why they don't fit. I personally haven't checked / tried to fit a 306 cam in to an EW but I do have a few spare EW heads and a few XU10J4RS cams. The main issue I can think of is the drive for the vacuum pump on the Xu10J4RS.

 

307 180 bhp is an EW10J4s afaik - not sure if you have further emission controls on the version you're looking at. The manifold should fit - obviously the standard EW downpipe flange will be in a different location so that would need adjusting.

 

I read that the EW12 manifold is the ideal choice for a standard inlet due to its length. adapting to cable throttle isn't a big issue, but the throttle body doesn't bolt straight on, would probably need an adapter bracket. the biggest issue is the space for the manifold from what I had seen.

 

What is your base engine and in what car body?

I don't know if those images can help somebody. Cams are a bit wider than the EW camshafts. It looks to fit without issues, but still no tightened.

I have also the idea of fitting the XU10J4RS (Xsara/306, RFS on images) on my EW10J4S head. Still not sure if I'm going to use the XU10J4RS cams, or two exhaust EW10J4S camshafts (VVT delete, as it will be installed into a 206 GTI). 

 

The main problem I can see is that the EW10J4S head has the camshaft position sensor in front of the intake camshaft (EW12J4 got it in the top of the exhaust camshaft).

Admision (1).jpg

Admision (2).jpg

Admision (3).jpg

Escape (1).jpg

Escape (2).jpg

Escape (3).jpg

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Darko_BG
On 1/4/2021 at 3:35 PM, dcc said:

the 206 's16' i think you refer to is the Ew engine base, the 406 could be either Xu or EW, depending on model and year. I think there was a cross over period.

 

I don't think you can use the 306 cams, from memory they have the same blanks but there was a reason as to why they don't fit. I personally haven't checked / tried to fit a 306 cam in to an EW but I do have a few spare EW heads and a few XU10J4RS cams. The main issue I can think of is the drive for the vacuum pump on the Xu10J4RS.

 

307 180 bhp is an EW10J4s afaik - not sure if you have further emission controls on the version you're looking at. The manifold should fit - obviously the standard EW downpipe flange will be in a different location so that would need adjusting.

 

I read that the EW12 manifold is the ideal choice for a standard inlet due to its length. adapting to cable throttle isn't a big issue, but the throttle body doesn't bolt straight on, would probably need an adapter bracket. the biggest issue is the space for the manifold from what I had seen.

 

What is your base engine and in what car body?

Base engine in EW10 136 HP,engine is in 406 so i do not have problem with inlet manifold  i have enough space for him.

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Darko_BG
On 1/8/2021 at 11:40 PM, ammm84 said:

I don't know if those images can help somebody. Cams are a bit wider than the EW camshafts. It looks to fit without issues, but still no tightened.

I have also the idea of fitting the XU10J4RS (Xsara/306, RFS on images) on my EW10J4S head. Still not sure if I'm going to use the XU10J4RS cams, or two exhaust EW10J4S camshafts (VVT delete, as it will be installed into a 206 GTI). 

 

The main problem I can see is that the EW10J4S head has the camshaft position sensor in front of the intake camshaft (EW12J4 got it in the top of the exhaust camshaft).

Admision (1).jpg

Admision (2).jpg

Admision (3).jpg

Escape (1).jpg

Escape (2).jpg

Escape (3).jpg

Yes but you do not have EW10J4 here,it is 136 hp,this is from 2.0 180hp and 2.2 158hp.

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ammm84
On 1/14/2021 at 8:52 AM, Darko_BG said:

Yes but you do not have EW10J4 here,it is 136 hp,this is from 2.0 180hp and 2.2 158hp.

Yes. My EW10J4 is still in the car (a 206 with broken engine), and far from me.

In my case I will use the EW10J4S head, and thinking about wich cams to use: XU10J4RS, or 2x EW10J4S exhaust cams. The main problem is that the car will want to read this on the exhaust camshaft:

EW12J4_teeths.jpg.81e4537c7dcb2b0513047e69f666138e.jpg

 

And instead it will read this:

RC_RFS.thumb.jpg.9520fa262c8c3e9fc3fc6160d158b6bb.jpg

 

Any idea about solving this?

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welshpug

looks like a separate pressed in part.

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