Gti6 Management On An Mi16

[eob 7]

The forum won't allow me to search for certain terms as they're too short so I can't find threads on same, but who out there has converted their Mi16 to GTi6 management? How'd you get on? The reason I'm asking is:

 

1. GTi6 management is lighter with less components

2. GTi6 management is newer and a lot better built, weather protected etc.

3. My own Mi16 loom isn't the greatest thing ever

4. GTi6 management seems to give much better MPG

5. GTi6 management is quite cheap

6. Option of the factory fit immobiliser if you're that way inclined

 

Who's done it? How'd you get on? What's involved?

[Moz_Goodwood 0]

good luck with ths mate, i wouldn't mind knowing myself

[welshpug 1,622]

I guess you're comparing it to the 1.9 management rather than the 2.0 system?

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Allot of work on the 1.9 but not so bad on the 2.0 S16 engine, Cam sensor's and coil packs are the hardest part to fit

[Anthony 1,000]

It would need to be remapped to work properly IMO, as MAP based management typically doesn't compensate very well to significant changes in engine characteristics as it has no way of measuring a change in airflow (an AFM based system does however, hence it's so flexible and adaptable). Factor in the cost of having it remapped - assuming there's someone your side of the Irish Sea that can do it - and suddenly the cheap option isn't looking cheap anymore...

[Cameron 16]

Definitely not. And you'd need to do some pretty heavy modifications to the ignition wiring, not to mention somehow fitting a cam phase sensor and the GTi6 pulleys. It can be done with enough effort, but why bother when mappable management isn't much more expensive? If you have to ask what's involved and weather it can be done, it's a pretty safe bet you'd struggle to make it work.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Cameron

[petert 550]

As Miles said, you need an S16 thermostat/cam sensor housing and then fit an S16 inlet cam, or swap the cam sensor tang.

[dee205 3]

Aftermarket mappable would be a lot easier and might work out cheaper in the end up. When you take into account finding suitable parts, modifying bits and getting a remap to suit the different engine.

[eob 7]

Some great points. The thing is, though, that mappable injection almost never seems to work. I've a few friends who went MegaSquirt and even after constant tweaks and work they're still staring down the barrel of massive fuel bills and not that much more power for a lot of expense on something which just doesn't have the strength of Motronic.

 

If someone could come along, map my car on a Megasquirt and get me 5mpg more and 180bhp I would take their hand off but we both know that isn't happening. However, on comparable cars with similar capacities, the 306 GTi6 gets approx 25% more fuel economy and some more horses despite the engines being mechanically very similar. Most of that, surely, has to be down to be the improvement in EFI?

[dcc 855]

isnt alot of it due to the spray patterns with the injectors due to the twin nozzle thing? I am sure i read somewhere that the injectors when fitted to a mi16 can give big gains alone. I was after a set to test on my 106 to see if the difference was noticable.

[petert 550]

Some great points. The thing is, though, that mappable injection almost never seems to work.

 

Depends who's mapping it and the capabilities of the unit. I've always stayed well clear of Megasquirt due to its poor reputation. If you can get the mapping close to stoichiometric and the unit can lock onto closed loop mode, there's no reason why fuel economy shouldn't be the same. Also, most don't put the effort into ignition mapping where the big gains come in fuel economy. That takes time and thus money on the dyno, which unfortunately gets over looked by Megasquirt users because they're looking for a cheap fix. A friend of mine paid AUS$900 to have his 205 mapped (XU10J4R+Haltech) and it's unbelievably good. That was 6 hrs on the dyno, not including time getting it on and off. It does everything correctly. Cold starts, hot starts, creeping along in traffic, 40+mpg. You wouldn't know it was aftermarket, other than how well it goes.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Peter's hit the nail on the head.

 

Your sweeping statement that aftermarket management usually never seems to work is a little silly, because ALL ECUs effectively do the same thing. They 'listen' to sensors, view the results as a whole, compare this all against a table and 'make a decision' as to how to deliver the fuel and spark. The critical thing here is the table in its brain, which is the mapping and programming.

 

IMO you have two choices:

 

1) Take your car to someone who really knows how to map MS. There don't appear to be that many publicly advertised who would/could call themselves specialists, but recently MTechMatt popped up on here (near Swindon IIRC) and they seem to stand by their product, offer no quibble guarantees, offer a full range of comprehensive services and are MS mapping specialists. Unless your loom is shot, this is probably the best way to go at the lowest cost, although they could replace your loom too.

 

2) Get a new A/M ECU (Emerald, DTA, Omex, Haltech etc), install a new loom and have it mapped properly by an engine tuner who really understands the product and what they're doing.

 

Emerald mapped mine, twice (as I changed the ITBs), and that's often getting over 35mpg from 2.2litres and behaves well in all conditions.

 

Ultimately I'm saying there's hope for your fuel economy and performance, which will perhaps transform the car if all components are working correctly and it's mapped properly, even if you stick with MS.

Edited December 17, 2009 by DrSarty

[eob 7]

Depends who's mapping it and the capabilities of the unit. I've always stayed well clear of Megasquirt due to its poor reputation. If you can get the mapping close to stoichiometric and the unit can lock onto closed loop mode, there's no reason why fuel economy shouldn't be the same. Also, most don't put the effort into ignition mapping where the big gains come in fuel economy. That takes time and thus money on the dyno, which unfortunately gets over looked by Megasquirt users because they're looking for a cheap fix. A friend of mine paid AUS$900 to have his 205 mapped (XU10J4R+Haltech) and it's unbelievably good. That was 6 hrs on the dyno, not including time getting it on and off. It does everything correctly. Cold starts, hot starts, creeping along in traffic, 40+mpg. You wouldn't know it was aftermarket, other than how well it goes.

 

I don't see a real reason why an 880kg car which is pretty aerodynamic shouldn't be doing 40mpg on a journey (or why it shouldn't be making 180bhp ) however, aftermarket ECU's and, in particular, a lot of RR tuners, seem to be one-trick ponies in terms of getting the unit set-up and squeezing out a few more bhp than standard to justify fitting an aftermarket ECU in the first place. However, it comes at the expensive of rubbish fuel economy and, quite often, a schizophrenic powerband.

 

A colleague of mine, into his tuned Saab's, has an ethanol powered 900 Turbo, home built, knows his stuff, after months of mapping got about 5% more power than the stock ECU but approx 25% worse fuel economy.

 

Does the expertise exist out there in Ireland/UK at a realistic price to properly tune an aftermarket ECU to really optimise what an engine can do in both power and economy terms? And at a realistic price?

Edited December 17, 2009 by eob

[Galifrey 1]

I don't see a real reason why an 880kg car which is pretty aerodynamic shouldn't be doing 40mpg on a journey (or why it shouldn't be making 180bhp ) however, aftermarket ECU's and, in particular, a lot of RR tuners, seem to be one-trick ponies in terms of getting the unit set-up and squeezing out a few more bhp than standard to justify fitting an aftermarket ECU in the first place. However, it comes at the expensive of rubbish fuel economy and, quite often, a schizophrenic powerband.

 

A colleague of mine, into his tuned Saab's, has an ethanol powered 900 Turbo, home built, knows his stuff, after months of mapping got about 5% more power than the stock ECU but approx 25% worse fuel economy.

 

Does the expertise exist out there in Ireland/UK at a realistic price to properly tune an aftermarket ECU to really optimise what an engine can do in both power and economy terms? And at a realistic price?

 

Ethanol will give lower economy than petrol as it has a lower calorific value so needs more fuel to get the same level of power.

 

Read the section on E85 ethanol here http://www.carbibles.com/fuel_engine_bible_pg2.html

Edited December 17, 2009 by Galifrey

[welshpug 1,622]

depends what you call a realistic price?

 

If you don't have the budget to get the mapper to spend the time on the dyno getting it right, you wont get it right.

 

Powerbands are more of an engine builder and setup issue than management IMO.

 

 

Also your comparison of a Turbo engine isn't a realistic one, chasing more power will inevitably burn more fuel, also IIRC with ethanol you need to use more of it than normal petrol to generate a certain amount of power as well, so definitely not a good example!

 

For the economy and emissions side of mapping, I have seen a few cars that Dave walker at emerald has mapped (Dr Sarty's included) which perform well both in power and economy, there's a short article on his website which details him mapping a K series powered Elise without a cat to pass modern emissions tests, there wass another mention of similar results when mapping a Vauxhall engine IIRC in his PPC column.

Edited December 17, 2009 by welshpug

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Good points here, The mapping you need to remember manufacture's spend £££££ and months on this area, When you think a RR has it done it a couple of days you can see why overall the map isn;t always as good.

I know a friend has spent well over 1k on mapping and now his car drive's spot (Cold, Hot & Traffic) on even thou the engine's changed again now, LOL

and another on Emerald that had a good 20bhp down on the previous RR figure but drives and feels much better overall, But as we know RR figures can be taken with a pinch of Salt

[Cameron 16]

isnt alot of it due to the spray patterns with the injectors due to the twin nozzle thing? I am sure i read somewhere that the injectors when fitted to a mi16 can give big gains alone. I was after a set to test on my 106 to see if the difference was noticable.

 

GTi6 injectors have a much higher flow rate than Mi16 ones, so you'll need a re-map when fitting them.

 

I don't see a real reason why an 880kg car which is pretty aerodynamic shouldn't be doing 40mpg on a journey (or why it shouldn't be making 180bhp )

 

Ok, 1 - a 205 is by no means "pretty aerodynamic" and 2 - you cannot get more power from an engine without using more fuel! I'm assuming you have a 160bhp Mi16 here, and reckon you should be getting a 20bhp and 5mpg increase, 'cos if you have a "130bhp" std 8V then frankly you need to lay off the crack. You will not get a 20bhp increase from management alone, and even if you did, your mpg would drop to around 30. To make more power you have to burn more fuel! The only other way is if you aren't burning your fuel efficiently, and this is where properly set-up aftermarket management comes in, but your engine would have to have been running seriously badly for you to make any more than a 5% gain.

 

however, aftermarket ECU's and, in particular, a lot of RR tuners, seem to be one-trick ponies in terms of getting the unit set-up and squeezing out a few more bhp than standard to justify fitting an aftermarket ECU in the first place. However, it comes at the expensive of rubbish fuel economy and, quite often, a schizophrenic powerband.

 

And what are you basing this on, hearsay, or actual personal experiences?

[James_m 0]

GTi6 injectors have a much higher flow rate than Mi16 ones, so you'll need a re-map when fitting them.

 

 

 

Ok, 1 - a 205 is by no means "pretty aerodynamic" and 2 - you cannot get more power from an engine without using more fuel! I'm assuming you have a 160bhp Mi16 here, and reckon you should be getting a 20bhp and 5mpg increase, 'cos if you have a "130bhp" std 8V then frankly you need to lay off the crack. You will not get a 20bhp increase from management alone, and even if you did, your mpg would drop to around 30. To make more power you have to burn more fuel! The only other way is if you aren't burning your fuel efficiently, and this is where properly set-up aftermarket management comes in, but your engine would have to have been running seriously badly for you to make any more than a 5% gain.

 

 

 

And what are you basing this on, hearsay, or actual personal experiences?

 

But full power and mpg and not really related, im guessing you wont really be pushing that hard if you are hoping to acheive 40 mpg!

 

I may be naive here as i dont actually own an aftermarket ECU but i dont understand why mapping has to be so complicated, ignoring cold start etc all mappers are doing is setting ignition timing and a fuel table which is probably ignored if you run closed loop with a wideband Lambda anyway.

I apreciate there is a lot here i have probably overlooked, but this is basically what it comes down to.

 

So i would be suprised if it turned out to be less economical than a standard Mi16 which has no lambda control and probably a worn out AFM.

I hope thats how it turns out anyway!

[Cameron 16]

Yeah that is basically what it all boils down to, it's certainly not a black magic and just about anyone with an understanding of how engines work can map one. What you pay for though it the years of experience and the reputation of getting it right every time. A pro mapper could do in a couple of hours what would take you weeks of trial and error, and of course they have their own rolling roads to quantify the results!

 

Yeah, full power and MPG aren't really related, although it obviously depends on your driving style and how much time you spend giving it beans. But if all you're after is better MPG, then what do you care about peak power? All it's going to do is reduce your fuel consumption. What you'd really want is a rev limiter set at 3K and a throttle that only half opens. You can't have your cake and eat it here I'm afraid.. it's either a big power figure or better mpg. In the real world they don't go hand in hand.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Cameron

[philfingers 5]

Are we missing the point here. You want to fit GTi6 management on an Mi, why not fit the whole GTi6 engine and management? Would be a a lot easier and cheaper probably

[Galifrey 1]

Yeah that is basically what it all boils down to, it's certainly not a black magic and just about anyone with an understanding of how engines work can map one. What you pay for though it the years of experience and the reputation of getting it right every time. A pro mapper could do in a couple of hours what would take you weeks of trial and error, and of course they have their own rolling roads to quantify the results!

 

Yeah, full power and MPG aren't really related, although it obviously depends on your driving style and how much time you spend giving it beans. But if all you're after is better MPG, then what do you care about peak power? All it's going to do is reduce your fuel consumption. What you'd really want is a rev limiter set at 3K and a throttle that only half opens. You can't have your cake and eat it here I'm afraid.. it's either a big power figure or better mpg. In the real world they don't go hand in hand.

 

I disagree with this to an extent, having an engine that isn't wasteful of fuel at low RPM, the range you drive it in for fuel economy can go hand in hand with decent increases in power at higher rpm range.

 

Sure if you expect higher power and better fuel economy in the same rpm range, aint gonna happen, but overall you can achieve both.

 

Standard ignition maps can be conservative on road engines due to varying fuel quality, having a decent knock sensor and an ECU that can make the most of it can make some improvement. Ignition maps can give a decent gain in power and fuel economy, however, if you will ever make back the cost of time spent mapping is debateable.

 

Like everything, if you set a goal of "20bhp and 40mpg" and then see an improvement of 10bhp and 5mpg then you can decide whether the exercise has been worthwhile.q

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Are we missing the point here. You want to fit GTi6 management on an Mi, why not fit the whole GTi6 engine and management? Would be a a lot easier and cheaper probably

 

Good point. In fact I'll have one for sale in a few weeks*.

 

Any how: Sandy not so long ago told me how in extensive testing he did, best fuel economy and best performance mapping were as near as damn it the same thing, i.e. if you had one, you usually got the other.

 

*80k - loom - Unlocked ECU - new belt and HG - PM if interested or wait for FS thread

[jackherer 543]

What you'd really want is a rev limiter set at 3K and a throttle that only half opens.

 

Not at all, a partially closed throttle is very uneconomical due to pumping losses, what you have described is the opposite of an economical petrol powered car.

[eob 7]

There's a whole lot of ''lets rip the n00b to shreds here".

 

First of all, why would I rip out a brand spanking new Mi with new rings, big ends, small ends, a skim, new valve seals etc to fit a GTi6? The original question was as regards fitting GTi6 management as I had a hazy memory of someone on here fitting a later version of Motronic to the Mi16 with a MAP and having some success? Plus, I'm trying to keep the weight down, an iron block just isn't an option.

 

As regards the ethanol-SAAB experience, the MPG didn't dip purely because he was running it on ethanol, it was versus the stock ECU while running on petrol. There seems to be somewhat of a myth out there amongst petrolheads that all car manufacturers employ hippies as ECU coders and that there's all this 'free' power just waiting to be had by chipping/fitting an aftermarket ECU.

 

The reality is quite different in that, as he found out with the SAAB, getting extra power, no problem whatsoever, creating an ECU map which was both efficient, more powerful and which worked under all conditions, different challenge entirely.

 

I found his experience to be somewhat refreshing in that he relayed his experience with MS on the line in a no-nonsense fashion. As in, I fitted the MS and found just how difficult it was to improve on the factory map. I would think that his experience isn't all that uncommon.

 

The second stumbling block with aftermarket ECU's is, as always, reliability. Maybe you disagree but the Motronic system found on Peugeots of that era was an excellent piece of simple engineering, all it needs is a CPS to run, everything else just makes it run better. What's more, diagnosing what's wrong with Motronic is tried and tested, is it the coil pack? Is it the CPS? Etc. However trawl through the "Aftermarket ECU" section of 205gtidrivers and you get an entirely different impression of aftermarket ECU's (just an observation, not a criticism). You go in there with the impression that a Megasquirt would be pretty awesome, if nothing else, and leave with the fear of god struck into you by just how many things can go wrong and how difficult it is to install and map one properly.

Edited December 17, 2009 by eob

[Galifrey 1]

There's a whole lot of ''lets rip the n00b to shreds here".

 

First of all, why would I rip out a brand spanking new Mi with new rings, big ends, small ends, a skim, new valve seals etc to fit a GTi6? The original question was as regards fitting GTi6 management as I had a hazy memory of someone on here fitting a later version of Motronic to the Mi16 with a MAP and having some success? Plus, I'm trying to keep the weight down, an iron block just isn't an option.

 

As regards the ethanol-SAAB experience, the MPG didn't dip purely because he was running it on ethanol, it was versus the stock ECU while running on petrol. There seems to be somewhat of a myth out there amongst petrolheads that all car manufacturers employ hippies as ECU coders and that there's all this 'free' power just waiting to be had by chipping/fitting an aftermarket ECU.

 

The reality is quite different in that, as he found out with the SAAB, getting extra power, no problem whatsoever, creating an ECU map which was both efficient, more powerful and which worked under all conditions, different challenge entirely.

 

I found his experience to be somewhat refreshing in that he relayed his experience with MS on the line in a no-nonsense fashion. As in, I fitted the MS and found just how difficult it was to improve on the factory map. I would think that his experience isn't all that uncommon.

 

The second stumbling block with aftermarket ECU's is, as always, reliability. Maybe you disagree but the Motronic system found on Peugeots of that era was an excellent piece of simple engineering, all it needs is a CPS to run, everything else just makes it run better. What's more, diagnosing what's wrong with Motronic is tried and tested, is it the coil pack? Is it the CPS? Etc. However trawl through the "Aftermarket ECU" section of 205gtidrivers and you get an entirely different impression of aftermarket ECU's (just an observation, not a criticism). You go in there with the impression that a Megasquirt would be pretty awesome, if nothing else, and leave with the fear of god struck into you by just how many things can go wrong and how difficult it is to install and map one properly.

 

 

I agree with you on the Mi16 mate, after all it is lighter, so to replace with a whole GTI-6 engine would defeat part of your object.

 

The system in the GTI-6 is way more sophisticated as it is more modern, so SHOULD have the potential to achive better economy with the same power, or maybe an improvement in both.

 

Like I (and others) said in earlier posts you will need a lot more sensor data for the GTI-6 management, and have the correct sensors. You will also need it mapping so it has a half decent base map for the closed loop fueling.

 

I do agree that a custom inlet with ITB's (Suzuki GSXR etc) with standalone ecu could get closer to what you are after tho, however, someone always has to try some of these things for the 1st time, who knows you may have come up with a genius idea that will work really well. Alternatively it could turn out to be a total ballache you regret starting.

 

Don't be too assuming its bash the n00b, written communication oftens comes accross as aggresive due to lack of tonality, most of the posts are just opinions (read my sig to appreciate them).

 

You could consider fitting a GTI-6 head? Some have done this already I believe, might help?

Edited December 17, 2009 by Galifrey