Bilstein Coilover Inserts- New Or Rebuild.

[philfingers 5]

I have some bilstein gravel inserts which came with what were/ are compbrake coilover bodies. The thread at the bottom is M10 x 1.0 I think. Can't remember the length or part no as I left them up at my workshop.

Who's the best person to approach for these? Are WMMS still running? I'll certainly give AB a try. Is it worth getting the old ones rebuilt, I heard this can be done. There's a little bit of chrome chipped off in places and they're so devoid of damping it's like there's no dampers on the car- the front is like zeberdee! I'm surpised they're so bad. I got them off ebay, 'one stage old- then we broke the box' type thing ages ago. The coilovers with the mud removed looked near as damn it new- all bright coating still. I sold some old PTS tar ones which I had on the 309 and they were fine after 10-12 road rallies and 10k road miles, except they looked tired. So are there bilstein and bilstein or should they all be similar quality. They were both coilover type, not the cheap 'make me go faster' boy racer stuff.

 

2) I have a box lying around with a 4.8 in it, which I got off Sandy (you can't remember can you Sandy what it is?). I'm sure it's a 4.8 as I did strip it but sure it's not a quaiffe. Thing is are all 4.8's PTS items or could it just be a std 4.8 cit/pug part from a road car? Or did anyone else make 4.8s?

 

Any help appreciated with the suspension. Looking for gravel inserts to go in coilover bodies, are fixed platform ones the same type of insert?

 

Phil

[tom_m 0]

Bilstein UK will rebuild them, I'm fairly sure Kate has posted their contact details before, but they shouldn't be too hard to find with a bit of Googling or if you want new Shenpar gave me an excellent price when I bought mine. Their website isn't up to much, but they know what they're doing and are happy to chat if you drop them a phone call.

Edited February 8, 2009 by tom_m

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

bilstien uk 01455283407

[205Rallee 59]

I've just had a set of tarmac 300/200 long top inserts rebuilt by Bilstein -£150 inc carriage took 3/4 weeks came back mint. The contact is the Workshop Manager - David Masters.

[philfingers 5]

Thanks guys for the quick reply. Any idea if the fixed platform ones are the same as I've found some of those for sale s/h.

205Rallee- did they rechrome them too or just rebuild the insides. These are long tops too. Which makes me think they'll be different to the fixed platform ones

 

phil

[205Rallee 59]

Thanks guys for the quick reply. Any idea if the fixed platform ones are the same as I've found some of those for sale s/h.

205Rallee- did they rechrome them too or just rebuild the insides. These are long tops too. Which makes me think they'll be different to the fixed platform ones

 

phil

 

Mine had been sitting in a garage for ten years and had done about 5 years of events before that. The piston rods were perfect despite the bodies being absolutely full of yucky water when I pulled the inserts out! The guy at Bilstein said the inserts were really filthy inside, but are now back to the original spec. I think if the pistons are rusty they just replace them with new ones and that may make the cost go up.

 

Not sure if the fixed platform ones are the same as the adjustable ride height ones.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

If the piston rod has any damage this will be replaced, your right in the top's some are longer for the rose joint of short for the std top mount, I'm sure the longer one's are hard to find unless you find say Shenpar with old (New) stock

[philfingers 5]

If the piston rod has any damage this will be replaced, your right in the top's some are longer for the rose joint of short for the std top mount, I'm sure the longer one's are hard to find unless you find say Shenpar with old (New) stock

it's the outer thicker part (not sure what you'd call it, body?) that's got a few nicks in it. Piston rod is fine. They are longer top ones, were fitted to std top mounts with spacers but I was intending to use my R/J'd ones eventually. Do you know if they're the same as the inserts in the fixed platform ones?

 

Phil

[Craigb 2]

Phil

 

 

you have a PM

[205wrc 16]

it's the outer thicker part (not sure what you'd call it, body?) that's got a few nicks in it. Piston rod is fine. They are longer top ones, were fitted to std top mounts with spacers but I was intending to use my R/J'd ones eventually. Do you know if they're the same as the inserts in the fixed platform ones?

 

Phil

 

Yes they are exactly the same as the fixed platform inserts - it's only the length of the tops that are different to either use the rose jointed top mount (longer) or a standard top mount (shorter), although the long top can be used with a standars top mount if you used a spacer.

 

I had one of my inserts rebuilt at Bilstein UK last year at a cost of £120 - that was a service and a new piston rod as the chrome had come off the old one, knackered the seal and leaked all the oil out. New ones are about that price as well.

 

Another one that does fit is a Mk2 Escort insert, but you must use a Mk2 top mount as well. A few local drivers in this area have gone down that route as.....

 

1. The inserts are much cheaper @ £74.50 each from Rally Design compared with £120 for a Peugeot

item from AB, Special Tuning, Skip Brown etc.

2. They are 40mm diameter so they fit in a Peugeot strut casing.

3. I'm fairly certain that you can use different size springs to the Peugeot ones so it then gives you

a wider choice of spring lengths and poundages - not a 100% sure on this one but I'll check the

Escort strut that I have in the garage against the Peugeot one.

 

Somebody also told me that the insert for the 205 is the same as the one for a Vauxhall nova as sold by Harry Hockley Motorsport (Group A spec). Don't know if it's true or not but it's worth a look.

 

Or if you want to be really posh - there's a road rally spec 205 Gti in north Wales running on Mitsubishi Lancer Evo 3 Proflex !!!!!!

[philfingers 5]

Thanks 205 WRC for that, plenty of info there. I was talking to a amate last night and my thoughts were I may as well get new ones. If i send them off to get rebuilt and they need rods etc then it's the same cost as new ones. And old knackered ones always have a value anyway. Same mate has an Astra and they had some rear units rebuilt by Bilstein and they fell apart, literally the piston came undone on both. Not good. The general consensus is that Bilstein are not as good as they used to be that maybe their concentrating on the fast road stuff which after all is where the money is.

I won't go down the route of MkII stuff as i just want it done now. Makes a change MkII stuff being cheaper than pug!

 

Phil

[Spiky 37]

i bought some new one's the other day

 

120+vat +16 for delivery

 

just if you wanted new prices

[205wrc 16]

Well, I've checked the Mk2 strut that I had in the garage against the 205 one, and they are both around 51mm - 52.5mm O/D (depending where you measure and the thickness of the paint).

 

Therefore, using 2.25" springs and a Mk2 Escort top mount will work, although you have to re-drill the top mount to get the hole spacings correct.

 

Just done some sums and the results are quite frightening!!

 

To build a new leg complete using Peugeot Sport genuine parts will set you back roughly £418.28 per leg + vat

To build the same using parts sourced from different suppliers will cost roughly £240.90 + vat!!!!!

 

The strut casings from Compbrake are £75.00 each........from Special Tuning, they are £154.90 each

The inserts from Rally Design are £74.50 each...........from Special Tuning they are £121.50 each

Springs are £14.90 each compared to £26.50 and the top and bottom spring pans are £27.00 compared to £55.38. Only the top mounts are the same with the rose jointed Group A version £60 each from Skip Brown and £59.50 each from Rally Design for the Roller Bearing Escort Version.

 

How can anyone justify the huge price difference or are Peugeot doing a "Buy One, Get One Free" !!!!!!!

 

Looks like my next set of suspension won't be all Peugeot!!!!!

[welshpug 1,621]

what does an escort top mount look like and why can the escort insert not be used in the 205 top mount?

[philfingers 5]

mmm substancial difference. I only need the inserts tho. Having both I'd say the PTS bodies are better quality than compbrake, probably not enough to justify the price difference tho!

 

Spiky were did you get those from for that price please?

 

Phil

[205wrc 16]

what does an escort top mount look like and why can the escort insert not be used in the 205 top mount?

 

The top of the Escort insert is a lot shorter and thicker than the Peugeot one hence the need to use the top mount.

I'll check the difference tomorrow night, but if you need to see the top mount, have a look at this......

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info....0b8u66f42jao1r2

[Spiky 37]

Phil

 

Skip brown

 

i have recently sold 2 sets of front bilsteins complete shocks

 

with springs (your choice) and ecctentric top mounts is £620 delivered to the UK

 

if you didn't want spring take off 40

 

if you didn't want the eccentric top mounts take off 85

[philfingers 5]

F***** arse, I just typed a big reply and submit and it said I wasn't logged in

 

I have some eccentric top mounts which use some adapters which would possibly take some adaptors and use the Escort inserts. 205WRC have you got a insert off the car you could get some dims off? maybe a picture?

 

The full Tar PTS set i have are 70mm and the compbrake ones are 65mm ID i think

 

Some pictures of them here

 

http://s188.photobucket.com/albums/z143/oilphiluk/

[SPGTi 2]

Phil,

 

For the inserts try AB, Shenpar or Peter LLoyd. I also managed to get 10 or 15% discount. Give me a call as tomorrow I am 15mins from Shenpar (save postage).

 

Steve

[205wrc 16]

Had a chance earlier on this evening to strip both struts down.

 

There isn't actually much difference between the two inserts.

 

Both are 40mm O/D and both tubes are 333mm long. The thread that screws into the bottom of the casings are the same on both. The only differences are the diameter and length of the top (that fits in the top mount) and the length of the piston rod.

 

The 205 leg that I stripped had a piston rod length of 177mm from the bottom of the tube to the end of the thread - which got me thinking that maybe they are a Sprintline Bilstein as they could be for a lowered car????

 

The Escort insert had a piston rod length of 231mm - this insert is known as a long gravel insert. The tarmac one has a shorter rod and is called the short tarmac insert, which is not far off the length of the insert that I took out of the 205 strut.

 

In the photo below, the 205 insert is the top one and the Escort one below it. The rod at the bottom is the one that Bilstein sent back to me last year when they rebuilt my gravel insert. It might be possible that the 205 gravel insert has the same rod length as the Escort one as the rod is over an inch longer

than the rod length that's showing on the Escort one if you know what I mean!!!!

I'll strip the ones that's on the car over the weekend to double check.

 

 

 

 

As I said earlier, the tops are different......

 

 

My long top gravel inserts are currently on the car. The one on the right is the 205's which fits a standard top mount. It's 14mm diameter and 26mm long. The Escort one on the right is 19.2mm diameter and 42.7mm long but it also has a flat on it, so it's basically "D" shaped. I think that this is the reason you need to use the roller bearing top mount for the Escort and the special "top hat" nuts if you fit these inserts on a 205.

[philfingers 5]

Very interesting. I think those Escort inserts may work with a few mods and fit the std pug top mounts too. I think they may need a little machining down and then a little adapter of some sort making to go on the top. Of course it's possible that it may not need machining down, just make a adaptor. I have mine gravel units all stripped down at the mo, I'll try and get the dims of the rod for you tonight. I did measure the overall length the other night but it's round at my workshop with the inserts! From memory the gravel units look a similar proportion to the escort ones. Any idea what the damper rates are for the escort gravel ones? MMM definitely worth a look

Edited February 12, 2009 by philfingers

[philfingers 5]

is the thread on the bottom of the damper rod the same? Pug ones are M10 x 1.0 I think

[205wrc 16]

is the thread on the bottom of the damper rod the same? Pug ones are M10 x 1.0 I think

 

Yes - exactly the same.

 

I took the insert out of the Escort leg and screwed it in to the 205 casing. It went in perfectly.

 

If you could find out the length of the piston rod on the gravel insert it would be a great help as it will save me stripping down my suspension over the weekend.

 

I think that the Escort gravel inserts are rated at 260/60 and the tarmac at 300/70, but by using the 2.25 springs, you have a huge choice of springs, from 90 lbs to 1400 lbs and from 4" to 14" in length, and they're only about £20 each.

[philfingers 5]

My Bilstein gravels ones are 0806XDE7880M0

 

piston rod is 198mm (measured same as yours, bottom of tube to bottom end of thread)

O/A length is 568mm

 

TBH if I could figure out a way of adapting them to my PTS R/J'd top mounts I'd keep the springs I have, they're just right for my needs. I think they 185lbs

 

Phil

 

PS Shenpar quoted me £122.50 + VAT for each side today in gravel

Edited February 12, 2009 by philfingers

[205wrc 16]

Star Man!!

 

That makes the rod on the Escort insert about 33mm longer than the Peugeot one, which will only give you extra travel I think as the height is determined by the spring.

 

Any thing is possible to make them fit - adaptors made to take the Pug Group A/ Group N top spring cup or even for the standard spring.

 

I know that Rally Design charge £74.50 each for the inserts + VAT and carriage. Had a look in Motorsport News, and the Squires Twins (Rally And Competition Equipment) are selling them for £90 each + VAT and carriage, so it's worth shopping around for them.

 

I'll have to take a spin down to West Wales Rally Spares I think to see what Gareth's got in stock.