Jump to content
  • Welcome to 205GTIDrivers.com!

    Hello dear visitor! Feel free to browse but we invite you to register completely free of charge in order to enjoy the full functionality of the website.

tomcolinjones

Aftermarket Ecu On Standard 8V

Recommended Posts

hoodygoodwood

I have fitted a new set of NGK BCP7ES and put a set of BCR8ES in the spares box in the boot of the 309 in case a resistor spark plug is needed . I have completed the last few jobs on the car and it will be on a trailer on its way down to Phoenix Automotive near Bournemouth tomorrow morning . They are going to fit the Omex ECU and loom to get the car running then run the fresh engine in on the road , then its oil and filter will be changed before final mapping on the rolling road .

Looking forward to seeing what this engine will produce on the rollers and of course how it will drive on the road , with a largely standard induction setup its not going to rewrite the record books but it should have useful gains over a standard XU9JA .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DamirGTI

You may have misunderstood what I meant by raising threshold? I mean with 8s the engine will be slightly more resistant to pinking/det, than with "hotter" 7s,

 

Yeah ! getting a little bit hot over here for my taste , so my brain is in kinda "safe mode" !

I did misunderstood/misread you're reply wrong way round ... dunno will see i might try the 8 grade ones but as you say the problem is likely to be in the other aspects of the engine design fuel quality and management components .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DamirGTI

I'm not at all familiar with MS1, so can't comment. I'd look at any 2nd hand ECU that has support for Motronic 60-2. If you can still get pins and connectors, then it's possibly worth buying. You can run it without fuel initially if desired. Ideally you want something with dual maps. If tuned properly, petrol and LPG ignitions maps are very different.

 

Peter , i meant the Megasquirt ECU .. but i have an old one , guess one of the first MS boards version 1 or something like that ..

I got it for free/as an gift from my mate few years ago , it was on his 205 first on a 1.6 engine and afterwards on a 2.0 turbo engine conversion .. was running fine on both of his engines , so i guess it can handle 60-2 triggering signal ?

As for dual maps , dunno if the megasquirt board of this vintage can do dual maps .

 

Stumbled on one of your post on ausiefroggs site regarding the ignition map for lpg - seems like it's also different than the petrol ignition map ? would this then need dual maps for ignition as well ?

 

D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
petert

Yes, normally with a dual map ECU, toggling between maps selects both fuel & ignition. They can be switched easily, such as when you switch between LPG & petrol. In the Haltech world for example, dual map ECU's include E8, E6X, Platinum series and most recent Elite series. Grounding an input is that it takes to make the switch. Handy for switching between low and high octane fuels for example.

 

If you've got an ECU however, you may as well use that if you rarely drive on petrol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DamirGTI

Will try for start with this megasquirt ECU , as it has built complete loom for jetronic so just needs connecting up and , mapping .

 

Afterwards if i do good with mapping the above , will find some better SA ECU , my funds aren't so good now anyways so can't really stretch for an proper ECU .

 

D

Edited by DamirGTI

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
309jazzpanda

I'm very interested in the results on the dyno. Probably going to through a spare 1.9 engine together with the 1600 pistons I've got with a 285 cam and motronic 3.1. My guess for miles engine is around the 160bhp mark.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hoodygoodwood

The Omex and loom are partialy fitted , the 309 should be ready by Monday , looking forward to picking it up then spending the rest of the week getting it ready for Pugfest .

160 BHP would be great but being realistic I am expecting 150 to 155 BHP , standard valves and porting and the almost standard throttle body are going to hold it back but that's ok as I want a driveable road engine not a cammy track engine . The Magnex manifold should be useful but the 2 box Magnex system always seemed quiet when I have had them on 205/309 so it might be a bit restrictive .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hoodygoodwood

The Omex 600 ECU is fitted , and the engine run in and mapped , I haven't seen the dyno print out yet but was told it produced 140 BHP on the rollers ( I assume that's a calculated figure at the flywheel ) , was expecting more considering whats been done but it has a very wide spread of torque I was told and it certainly feels like it .The Piper 285 is described as a fast road cam and under 1600 rpm its a bit grumpy and from cold you have to be careful as it has no SAD or ICV but once warm it pulls like a train from 1600 rpm with no hint of pinking or flat spots .The Magnex is quieter than I would like and at some stage in the future I might have an exhaust made that sounds a bit sportier and once its covered a few thousand miles it might be worth checking it on the dyno again . They said the standard inlet was strangling its breathing at the top end and throttle bodies would give 15 - 20 bhp but I could do without the expense and like the largely standard look under the bonnet .

Convoyed down to Pugfest with the Essex boys on Saturday morning which was a good first run out and it did ok in the concours considering I was still putting it back together on Thursday .Was going to take it up the hill at Prescott but I want to bed the brakes in a bit more and am not ready to redline it yet as its only covered about 250 miles .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
welshpug

if its been mapped its already been 'redlined' and the brakes will be fine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Matteo

[...]

160 BHP would be great but being realistic I am expecting 150 to 155 BHP [...]

 

My engine seems pretty much like yours, and it delivers 166 BHP: http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?app=garage&do=view&id=94&tab=main

I love the way we have reteined the dummy AFM just to save the OE look :wub:

Edited by Matteo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TAG

Miles, apologies if i've missed it, but where have you got the cam timing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hoodygoodwood

Hi Matteo , our engines are a similar spec but I have standard size valves and porting , the guys who tuned it said head and valve work plus throttle bodies would make a lot more power - around 20/25 BHP . I think your cam has more duration and the throttle body is a bit larger than my standard 49 mm diameter one , its good to see whats possible if I want to make more changes . The induction sounds ok on my engine but the exhaust is too quiet so that may be the thing I change when finances allow , a stainless system made to suit the engine spec would be my choice - I will be looking for recommendations on an exhaust specialist later .

I have been sent the dyno sheet from the rolling road tune , I will put it up later .

Tom , I fitted the Piper 285 cam using a standard pulley and then measured the timing using a DTI mounted on a bracket on the head and a timing disc on the crank . Timing was 3 degrees out iirc so I bought a Piper vernier pulley and used it to set the cam timing to the figure on the Piper spec sheet . It was the first time I have done this so I took great care , the tuners said they would probably have noticed if it was wrong .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TAG

Miles, would you mind walking through how you timed up the engine?

With 1600 pistons, you should have enough compression for that cam. The first thing I would be looking at is checking that the cam is not too far advanced.

I think you initial estimates of 150-155hp are about right for the spec. You mention that it pulls like a train from low down, this also makes me think the cam is too advanced.

 

If you're happy with the engine as-is, then fair enough, but I think there's more to be had with a bit of fettling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Matteo

Hoodygoodwood, my throttle body is a std. one which I had lathed to a slightly bigger diameter, with a new plate, and milled a bit the thick shaft.

I had a huge improvement in performance ones I fitted a full stainless exhaust line 60 mm diameter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
welshpug

you must be slightly deaf or the car still has a full interior if a magnex is not loud!

 

it was more than large enough for DCC's throttle bodied high compression 1.9, that was running roughly 176 bhp at the flywheel, with a 300 degree newman cam.

 

the BP285 is an 'ultimate road' cam, so would not be far short of the newman rally cam, the piper rally cam is a step further.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Anthony

you must be slightly deaf or the car still has a full interior if a magnex is not loud!

I've not looked back to see which system Miles has, but certainly the Magnex backbox (standard front section) I had on one of my old 309's was surprisingly quiet - far quieter than a full Magnex system on a 205 anyway!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hoodygoodwood

The 309 has a full Magnex manifold and system for a 309 GTI , its noisy in the sense that all tubular manifolds are noisy because they are made of thin tube that does not deaden the noise like a standard cast manifold and thick steel tube downpipe does . I was talking about the exhaust noise from the exhaust exit , after hearing the Milltek stainless system on their 205 GTI demonstrator at FCS last year I know how I want it to sound . The car has a full interior - Goodwood seats and carpet .Induction sound is great with K+N 57i kit , maybe the small mod I made turning down the throttle body spindle ( Like Matteo did )to a smaller diameter has helped here .

I will put up the dyno printout when I suss out how to do it now that Photobucket seems to be a no go .

As for the cam timing I had the assembled engine on my stand in my kitchen , I fitted a Newman cams timing disc to my crank pulley and rigged up a pointer out of sturdy wire . I used a dial test indicator ( DTI ) mounted on a plate bolted to an inlet manifold bolt , with an extended plunger to reach down through the spark plug hole . Now before any one says how easy it is to find TDC they should remember this is not a 4 valve per cylinder engine with a central plug hole that you can drop your DTI down onto the piston through , the angle that you need to have on the DTI means the contact point drags across the face of the piston as you wind it up and down . Because of the dwell at the top of the stroke its normal to swing 20 degress or whatever either side of TDC to help find it but the angle and drag plus the fact that the I do not think the piston face is dead flat means its tricky , I did it at least 15 times till I was happy I had TDC correct . I then moved my DTI to the appropriate cam follower and cycling the engine read off what degree I had full lift at . I am at work so do not have my notes to hand but I then used the vernier to adjust the timing till it was as stated on the Piper spec sheet .I did try relating flywheel marks to the timing plate but they were well out for some reason .

As careful as I was doing all this I did ask the tuners if they thought I may have got it wrong and they said it all looked good .

I was expecting a little more BHP I suppose but if I am reading the sheet correctly I have at least 115 Lb/ft of torque from 2100 rpm to 6400 rpm which makes it nice to drive .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
welshpug

your figures sound like wheel numbers, flywheel torque on a standard 1.9 is more than 115, so 140 bhp at the wheels is a good result.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TAG

The 309 has a full Magnex manifold and system for a 309 GTI , its noisy in the sense that all tubular manifolds are noisy because they are made of thin tube that does not deaden the noise like a standard cast manifold and thick steel tube downpipe does . I was talking about the exhaust noise from the exhaust exit , after hearing the Milltek stainless system on their 205 GTI demonstrator at FCS last year I know how I want it to sound . The car has a full interior - Goodwood seats and carpet .Induction sound is great with K+N 57i kit , maybe the small mod I made turning down the throttle body spindle ( Like Matteo did )to a smaller diameter has helped here .

I will put up the dyno printout when I suss out how to do it now that Photobucket seems to be a no go .

As for the cam timing I had the assembled engine on my stand in my kitchen , I fitted a Newman cams timing disc to my crank pulley and rigged up a pointer out of sturdy wire . I used a dial test indicator ( DTI ) mounted on a plate bolted to an inlet manifold bolt , with an extended plunger to reach down through the spark plug hole . Now before any one says how easy it is to find TDC they should remember this is not a 4 valve per cylinder engine with a central plug hole that you can drop your DTI down onto the piston through , the angle that you need to have on the DTI means the contact point drags across the face of the piston as you wind it up and down . Because of the dwell at the top of the stroke its normal to swing 20 degress or whatever either side of TDC to help find it but the angle and drag plus the fact that the I do not think the piston face is dead flat means its tricky , I did it at least 15 times till I was happy I had TDC correct . I then moved my DTI to the appropriate cam follower and cycling the engine read off what degree I had full lift at . I am at work so do not have my notes to hand but I then used the vernier to adjust the timing till it was as stated on the Piper spec sheet .I did try relating flywheel marks to the timing plate but they were well out for some reason .

As careful as I was doing all this I did ask the tuners if they thought I may have got it wrong and they said it all looked good .

I was expecting a little more BHP I suppose but if I am reading the sheet correctly I have at least 115 Lb/ft of torque from 2100 rpm to 6400 rpm which makes it nice to drive .

 

Miles, if you rotate the crank until all of the timing pins line up, that should be 90 deg before tdc on cyl 1+4. Shortly after this, Cyl4 inlet cam should just be starting to come off the back of the lobe and start pressing on the bucket.

 

If you are curious about re-measuring what you have the cam timed at, rotate crank until the timing pins line up, and fit your timing disc with the pointer showing 90deg btdc.

I think this will eliminate any (possible) error you will have trying to determine TDC with poking things down the offset plug hole. There will be a surprising amount of dwell on the piston near TDC that may throw your readings off.

 

With TDC now marked up on your timing disc, you can have a look at what the cam is doing.

Again, there will be a few degrees dwell on the peak of the cam lobe that can mean that simply rotating the crank and watching for the minimum DTI reading will be trickier than it at first seems.

When I timed up my mi16 with non-standard cams, I knew I had 9.65mm peak lift, so elected to take crank angle readings with the DTI showing 1mm, 2mm, 3mm and 4mm. The crank angle readings were taken on both the valve opening and valve closing side of the peak. Adding each reading (1mm before and 1mm after, 2mm before and 2mm after etc) together and dividing by two should give the crank angle at peak lift.

Using this method, all of my crank angles came out within half a degree of each other, meaning I am fairly confident I've got the cam where I want it.

 

As I said earlier, if you are happy with your engine, by all means enjoy it. But if you are interested in double checking where you have the cam set, perhaps it would be worth giving this method a try. I'd be keen to hear how you get on.

 

If anything I've written is unclear, let me know,

Thanks,

Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hoodygoodwood

When I fitted my engine to the machine mart stand there was no room for the flywheel to be fitted , by the time I had built up the engine and was timing the cam I decided it would be useful to fit the flywheel so I could use the timing plate as another reference for TDC . I made some spacers for the 4 bolts on the stand which allowed me to get the flywheel in . Its a GTI6 flywheel so the normal timing plate fouled it so I bent it a little and made a manual mark on it for TDC once I found it ( none of the original marks on either lined up at TDC ) . If I was doing it all again I would fit the flywheel to the short engine and use the DTI direct on the piston crown then set the pointer on the cam timing disc and make a permanent mark on the timing plate/flywheel as a belt and braces approach .

As you say there is the dwell issue both for piston at top of stroke and cam lobe at full lift which has to be worked round .I never considered using the timing pin holes as I have always found the 10 mm dowel to be a sloppy fit and what with manufacturers tolerances on the machined surfaces I assumed it would not be reliable , I have found every crank pulley to have a bit of clearance on its fit with the woodruff key .

The car is basically finished but no doubt I will be making changes to it over the years , an exhaust will probably be first .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hoodygoodwood

http://s928.photobucket.com/user/hoodygoodwood/media/ANDY%20PUG%20DYNO_zpspnw4tuzv.png.html?sort=3&o=0

 

Sorry its a dodgy link but photobucket does seem to be working .

As you can see maximum power is 140.1 BHP at 6200 rpm , torque is 131.5 lb/ft at 4500 rpm .

Standard 1.9 GTI is 130 BHP at 6000 rpm and 119 lb/ft at 4750 rpm .

Have checked with the tuner and these are calculated flywheel figures not at the wheels .

Edited by hoodygoodwood

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Miles

It's about right from building these in various spec's, the std inlet manifold isn't great with a 285 cam, With bodies they make around 150>160 bhp, also the K tec roller's are realistic generally and have had a few car's on other RR days find a extra 10bhp out of thin air. As we know Figure's mean little its how it drives

 

The exhaust is fine, A mates little used Race car has a magnex manifold and makes over 200bhp, give it some use the the baffles will fall out of the box's as Magnex systems do so will become allot louder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hoodygoodwood

Spoke too soon with the Photobucket account , will put the dyno graph up once I sort out another way of doing it .

The 309 is still going well , looking forward to the long drive up to Donnington for FCS this weekend .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Miles

Graph from the RR

post-43-0-86801700-1500069469_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hoodygoodwood

This is the finished engine bay , engine is run in now , gave it a checkover and top up recently and all is well .

36843374186_dd1368d365_k.jpgDSCN1818 by MILES HOOD, on Flickr

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×