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tomcolinjones

Aftermarket Ecu On Standard 8V

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hoodygoodwood

I have an ICV from an Mi I think , it could be plumbed into the manifold I suppose but would the Omex or Emerald ECU be able to control it , could make mapping it a bit complicated .I was hoping to do without it for the sake of simplicity .

With a slight power hike I would have thought the std injectors would be ok , on a 1600cc you could step up to 1.9 yellow injectors if you had to , or use the orange ones that are between the blue and yellow in flow rate .( I have a set that I had ultrasonically cleaned before I realised they were wrong ! )

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Anthony

All 16V flywheels are identical. We have a model over here called an Si. It's the 1.6 with mono point Marelli injection.

Over here they're not.

 

1.8 16v (XU7JP4) use a 200mm Motronic flywheel, the same as CAT equipped 205 1.9 GTI's.

 

1.9 Mi16 and all 2.0 8v and 16v engines use the same 215mm Motronic flywheel though.

 

We didn't get the 205 Si over here as we got a proper 1.6 GTi instead, but I think the same engine (with the flywheel) was in other early 90's PSA cars like the ZX and 405. Not very common though compared to the XU 1.8 8v variants in my experience and most 1.6's models were usually TU5's.

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hoodygoodwood

Had a quick search round the garage tonight and managed to find the flywheel pick up cable , I knew it was in there somewhere .

There are some likely looking air temperature sensors on Ebay listed for all sorts of Peugeot models , they have the 205/309 Bosch type connector so I might have to buy one so I can get it fitted to the manifold .

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hoodygoodwood

One of the air temperature sensors that looks suitable is on Ebay , item number 191410494174 , it is not a Bosch part so quality might be questionable .Any opinions ?

I have had a look through the throttle position switches/potentiometers and there seem to be no GTI6 ones available , which type should I be looking for ? there are a few different types with multiple Peugeot applications .

Have put up a wanted post for the inlet manifold .

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welshpug

original IAT sensor for my zx ecu system was not bosch anyway ;)

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opticaltrigger

I reckon that it would be fine for the job Miles. Or you could use this one if you like the look of it better...http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lucas-SNB801-Sender-Unit-Air-Temprature-Sensor-For-Jaguar-XJ-XJS-AT1014-/221656368395?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item339bbfc50b

 

I had the same headache with a TPS and in the end I think we ended up geting a 405 or 406 (cant quite remember) one in the end because it had the correct shape to match the shaft, and made a small plate to go behind it.I think the throtle shaft had a little bit cut of the protruding end aswell from memory to allow the sensor to go on far enough.

 

Did you have a Paticular make of controller in mind yet for it.

All the best

 

O.T.

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hoodygoodwood

That Lucas sensor looks ideal , I would rather pay a bit extra for a branded one that would hopefully be better quality . Parts from Intermotor and the like do not have a good reputation .

For the management I have no experience at all but Omex and Emerald seem to be well recommended , I want to do most of the work myself but will need it all wired up by a pro so will go with their recommendations and of the person they use for mapping .

Someone has replied to my wanted ad for an inlet manifold + TB so hopefully will be sorted on that front soon .

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hoodygoodwood

That looks the part doesn't it , looked at the seller and it does not say if the part is new . Searched for more of the same sensors and came up with item number 121448878864 , its new and cheaper too . Shall I buy it , would appreciate some advice on the throttle switch/potentiometer choice as well , I appreciate that I may have to make an adaptor plate .

Talking to Anthony he thought it might be better to run a MAP sensor , could this be done as well as a throttle potentiometer . Belt and braces type approach .

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opticaltrigger

That one from Tom looks good to.

I had a really great chat with someone just a few days back regarding different controllers. He personaly is a DTA man himself.

 

The general feeling he had on it all was that DTA, Omex, Emerald etc do have a much more simple approach to it all in terms of user interface and the way they do the math, and that Megasquirt was overly complex and is ok if your a bit shall we say geeky in terms of wanting to be able to trim the arse out of every single variable parameter and the way they inter relate to one another.

 

As I said, I've only used MS but he's tried and mapped em all so I take his oppinions seriously on it.

Personaly,having started on it, I get it with MS and I like the idea of being able to get involved with the most miniscule of details it seems to provide, however that kind of approach is'nt for everyone and once mapped you can just leave it alone aswell. Although good mappers for MS also seem to be slightly less common aswell,so I'm told.

 

The wiring on it though I thought was very straight forward and I would imagine that it's the same for all of them really.Your just conecting sensors to a plug basically.

I'm sure the fundamentals such as common sensor grounding and cable shielding for crank triggers etc are identical to.

When I did our's I was quite fussy on the wiring and found that for example, quality microphone cable from Maplins made for a great job of wiring the crank sensor in.

 

I think it's very important to use both MAP and TPS.

TPS is very good from the point that it's fast, as in when you hit the pedal the ECU imidiatley sees the change.

MAP is not as fast but is definaltley more in touch with reality.

 

However a combination of the two allows for the best of both worlds to be used,with the TPS signal seeing the change very quickly and the MAP signal stepping in to make allowances for the more subtle changes. The combination of the two really is very accurate.

MS has a slide bar in software which allows you to sellect which of the two sensors you would like the controller to listen to the most. (speed / accuracy or a bit of both).

 

 

Anyway,all the best

O.T.

Edited by opticaltrigger
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hoodygoodwood

Do you have a pic of the TPS that you used , Ebay is full of them in 3 or 4 main designs ( for Peugeots ) but it is not clear if they are the 3 position 'switch' type as used on the 205/309 or a variable potentiometer type which of course is what I need .

The MAP sensors seem very simple to retro fit , a hole for the sensor and one for the securing bolt .

The engine will be going into a base model 309 along with the entire GTI running gear that I have already and have been refurbing on and off for the last year or so . See my pic on this post for what it will look like - or read my post on the 309 forum - in id miles1234 .So the 309 has none of the usual wiring in place for an injected engine , I have a GTI tank and fuel pump etc but wiring is not my thing so will entrust this to an expert .

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GLPoomobile

That one from Tom looks good to.

I had a really great chat with someone just a few days back regarding different controllers. He personaly is a DTA man himself.

 

The general feeling he had on it all was that DTA, Omex, Emerald etc do have a much more simple approach to it all in terms of user interface and the way they do the math, and that Megasquirt was overly complex and is ok if your a bit shall we say geeky in terms of wanting to be able to trim the arse out of every single variable parameter and the way they inter relate to one another.

 

As I said, I've only used MS but he's tried and mapped em all so I take his oppinions seriously on it.

Personaly,having started on it, I get it with MS and I like the idea of being able to get involved with the most miniscule of details it seems to provide, however that kind of approach is'nt for everyone and once mapped you can just leave it alone aswell. Although good mappers for MS also seem to be slightly less common aswell,so I'm told.

 

The wiring on it though I thought was very straight forward and I would imagine that it's the same for all of them really.Your just conecting sensors to a plug basically.

I'm sure the fundamentals such as common sensor grounding and cable shielding for crank triggers etc are identical to.

When I did our's I was quite fussy on the wiring and found that for example, quality microphone cable from Maplins made for a great job of wiring the crank sensor in.

 

I think it's very important to use both MAP and TPS.

TPS is very good from the point that it's fast, as in when you hit the pedal the ECU imidiatley sees the change.

MAP is not as fast but is definaltley more in touch with reality.

 

However a combination of the two allows for the best of both worlds to be used,with the TPS signal seeing the change very quickly and the MAP signal stepping in to make allowances for the more subtle changes. The combination of the two really is very accurate.

MS has a slide bar in software which allows you to sellect which of the two sensors you would like the controller to listen to the most. (speed / accuracy or a bit of both).

 

 

Anyway,all the best

O.T.

 

Just had to say, that was a really good explanation for the layman like me. I'm not even doing any of this stuff, and just reading this topic for the sake of it, but that explanation was so simple I found it really interesting :)

 

Anyway, as you were.....

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Miles

Yes most mapper's won;t touch MS as it's DIY and a few don;t touch job's that have been wired at home so to speak with the amount of issues it cause's it takes allot of time to fix.

Omex and DTA are the one's I would go for, quicker and better mapping, Emerald takes twice as long

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tomcolinjones

this thread is really taking off! Lots of useful info here :)

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jackherer

a few don;t touch job's that have been wired at home so to speak with the amount of issues it cause's it takes allot of time to fix.

 

I've seen wiring you've done Miles and it is very good but most other so called professional wiring I've seen has been as bad as the amateur attempts so I'm not sure it is worth their while distinguishing between the two.

 

The most recent example I've fixed involved an Emerald ECU plug soldered onto the end of a 25 year old Mi16 loom where the Bosch connector used to be. This was done by a well known Scottish Peugeot specialists at huge expense. They had split the injector wiring into pairs and used a wire that was too small diameter for two of them which was melting and charred. And they had also supplied and fitted a brand new ignition amp after wiring the original coil (and dist. cap etc!)) directly to the ECU, the engine still ran with the new amp unplugged!

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ALEX

Ecosse? :ph34r:

 

 

Don't forget to add the build project in the projects section. Like many on here I would be interested in the results as I'm not too bothered about a large power hike, but I like the idea of a factory looking 8v that runs as smooth as a modern car.

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tomcolinjones

is it emerald that you can fit a switch to change between maps? So you could have a cold start map, economy and power maps?

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Anthony

Yes Emerald has the map switching function on K3/K6 models, but I don't really see the point on an typical N/A car.

 

Any map should have all the cold start setup on it and power and economy should be doable on a single map given that economy is going to come from the light load areas where you spend most of the time and power from the high-load areas.

 

More useful on a turbo or similar where you might want a high-boost map or perhaps one with ignition timing pulled back for 95RON fuel usage.

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dcc

not sure about others, but with my DTA it takes roughly 10 seconds to upload and save a map to the ecu using a laptop.

 

Always remember Sandy telling Welshpug and myself that he tends to find the most fuel efficient engines return their best power figures (iirc he has a 220bhp ish 1.6 tu engine in a road going saxo which returns a frequent 40mpg when driven normally).

 

For what it is worth, I have a modified 8v which is mapped by Sandy, when driving to pugfest last year we got it to do roughly 48mpg when driving to the 50mph speedlimit on 1 section of road, when doing 60 on another section we had it doing about 45mpg, and when doign 70 it dropped to about 42mpg iirc. We worked this out as we could see the amount of fuel the injectors were using per hour. funny enough though my engine produces enough torque in the right areas to only need 4% throttle to bob along at 70mph on the flat :)

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welshpug

you dont need more than one map for most n-a engines, just a proper map.

 

I think the only cases ive seen different maps is for very high output rally engines where they have a wet map, where I believe the ignition curves arent as agressive, possibly a lower rpm limit, but we're talking 2.5 L enginesl which are north of 300 bhp and 200lbft in 2wd cars under 1000 kg.

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hoodygoodwood

I am watching a couple of used MAP sensors on Ebay , for a 106 GTI . I could fit this to the inlet so it is there to be tried if necessary , could be dodgy buying a used one though .Mapping an engine with TPS and MAP sensors would take longer I assume and cost more .

It is interesting that there are a number of people thinking about the same solution to the Bosch jetronics flaws and limitations , I have searched the forums over the years and found very little on this subject . Anthonys post was the main one and I was surprised more had not tried it .

Not sure how far along the others are toward building an engine , I have to finish my Miami resto first but I will be gathering the parts and would hope to have the engine together before the 309 is finished .

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welshpug

you tend to map the ecu with either map or tps as load not both.

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petert

Map blending by TPS and MAP has become quite common on new ECU's, especially on TB engines with big cams. It allows the best of both. Be careful buying sensors which may not match your ECU. Unless your ECU has user definable curves to match resistance with temp., you'll have weird numbers. The GTi6 MAP sensor for example, works in reverse to most other MAP sensors. If you buy a quality ECU you can use any sensor.

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Miles

I see that type of wiring all the time and the price charged for a well 'job' is I leave that to your imagination, Same as we know for Alarm installations.

One of those things where a company try's to do it all and no one can have that much experience at the end of the day, Thats the reason I don;t do a few things and outsource it along with being more cost effective too

 

1 bar map sensor from Omex retails around £90.00, The other that may work 106 1.3 Rallye as it's the same type (Never checked thou) and no doubt a few other's.

I know a mate of mine is off to see Sandy from Pamers Green as he's tried most around him which have all been poor

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hoodygoodwood

On Miles' recommendation have had a look at the Omex and DTA websites , I have hardly heard of DTA so would probably choose Omex .Their 600 series ECU seems to have all the functionality needed , it does say TPS or MAP for load though so it will have to be one or the other . Their basic loom seems good value at £60 .Would the injectors still be batch fired , I assume sequential would be for more highly modified engines ?

Would the ECU normally be mounted in a plastic box next to the battery as on more modern engine bays or inside the car .

Looking for a 1.6 bottom end now to pinch the pistons from .

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