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sam jfm

Ew10 Breather Setup - Catch Tank Over Fill Issue?

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welshpug

there really shouldn't be that much oil in the breathers, have you seen the size of the oil drains?!

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drmo

@Welshpug: If you don't drain it back to the sump it fills the catch can in a few seconds in a run on a dyno. The breathers on ew10j4s are not meant to be vented to atmosphere. Most of this problems that I read about are most probably because all of them block the breathers on the head (intake manifold side) and ditch the original separator on the intake manifold, using only one breather on the cam ladder and put it into a catch can. The breather on the side of the cam ladder is not baffled, the rocker cover is not baffled, so the spluttering oil goes through the vent.

 

We sorted this by using stock separator. No problems all season of track days, hill climbs and driving on the road.

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Schumi

If you are running on solid lifters you should decrease inside diameter of oil feed hole to head. Thats suggested buy France engine builders. I cant remember exact figures but I will look. When you using solid lifter lots of unnecessary oil hold by cam galleries on head.

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drmo

Yes, that is correct. Better to have oil where it is needed. Without hydraulic lifters and VVT pulley the head doesn't need so much oil.

 

The talk here is mostly on near standard engines that have these problems. I was addressing these issues for those.

 

BTW Schumi, were you the one that had questions on our FB page about the ITB manifold for the JP4S engine?

Edited by drmo

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speaksgeek

Thank you, this is a very helpful discussion.

 

When I look at the diagram, it's starting to make much more sense.

On the separator, the large diameter connection on the top, is that the air return (after separation) into the intake (and then directly into combustion, after the throttle body). Could that be considered the same as the filtered vent on the top of a catch can?

 

I'm wondering what the direction of airflow is for the T hose marked 1 on the diagram is?

What is the purpose of the inlet marked in red from manifold?

 

Sorry if I seem dense, but the airflow routing seems rather circuitous. :unsure:

I'm trying to think through what exactly will be needed when replaced with ITB's and a separating catch can. I'm pretty confident I won't be recycling air back into the ITB's?

 

Yes, the separator flows the oil back to the sump. The engine is vented from the head, through the intake manifold into the separator. There is a second breather that goes from the back of the cam ladder to the separator. The oil gets separated in the box and the fumes get recycled through the engine, the oil goes back to the sump.

Edited by speaksgeek

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drmo

Thank you, this is a very helpful discussion.

 

When I look at the diagram, it's starting to make much more sense.

On the separator, the large diameter connection on the top, is that the air return (after separation) into the intake (and then directly into combustion, after the throttle body). Could that be considered the same as the filtered vent on the top of a catch can?

 

I'm wondering what the direction of airflow is for the T hose marked 1 on the diagram is?

What is the purpose of the inlet marked in red from manifold?

 

Sorry if I seem dense, but the airflow routing seems rather circuitous. :unsure:

I'm trying to think through what exactly will be needed when replaced with ITB's and a separating catch can. I'm pretty confident I won't be recycling air back into the ITB's?

 

Maybe this will help better:

 

Put the hoses that go from the separator into the manifold/intake pipe into catch can. Problem solved.

post-9893-0-70999200-1487259707_thumb.jpg

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speaksgeek

Maybe this will help better:

 

Put the hoses that go from the separator into the manifold/intake pipe into catch can. Problem solved.

 

Awesome, thanks.

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Schumi

My plan is get some EW10A cam covers from direct injection version of EW engine. Its very tall comparing others. So maybe that covers baffled. I cant check it because that engine never sold in any car in my country.

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sam jfm

I believe that I have gotten to the bottom of this one!

 

The oil was actually coming back up the sump return hose into the catch tank, filling it and escaping out of the breathable cap. ( I know it sounds unlikely )

 

I tried multiple different configurations of breather pipe and I was still having the same issue. But after putting a bung into the return line it stopped the dramatic oil escape issues and has been fine.

 

Obviously with no return to sump you do get some oil make its way into the catch can.

 

I surmise that under normal load and level conditions it's not a problem, but at high RPM with elevated crankcase pressure and cornering G's it is.The force of cornering moves the oil away from the return hole, exposing it to the increased crank case pressure and any oil in the hose gets forced up the return hose like a whale clearing its blowhole!

 

I can only imagine that the standard setup has some form of check / one way valve in it.

 

I might be wrong, but that's my theory!

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speaksgeek

Good to know, interesting theory.

I will be pulling all this apart soon on mine, so I'll see if I can investigate further and confirm.

 

 

I believe that I have gotten to the bottom of this one!

 

The oil was actually coming back up the sump return hose into the catch tank, filling it and escaping out of the breathable cap. ( I know it sounds unlikely )

 

I tried multiple different configurations of breather pipe and I was still having the same issue. But after putting a bung into the return line it stopped the dramatic oil escape issues and has been fine.

 

I can only imagine that the standard setup has some form of check / one way valve in it.

 

I might be wrong, but that's my theory!

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drmo

Actually it doesn't have a check valve. The separator is just baffled. There is a chance that some of the oil comes up the hose when cornering, as the level drops (that is why a baffle is preferred when using the car on a track).

 

This is a baffle that I made:

http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=0B5WxbgjTAvq3dzFlb1BETnpoRzg

 

http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=0B5WxbgjTAvq3bFhlN3RKbzR6UEU

 

http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=0B5WxbgjTAvq3OXZtNFdFQXZzTFU

 

I have also moved the drain back up as much as I could on the sump. When you do this the hole gets exposed out of oil, which means that if there is pressure in the crankcase it will force the oil back up the hose (this is similar to what happens to original position and cornering without baffled sump). If you do not want this you need to make a proper breathing system.

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sam jfm

That baffled sump looks the business, I will have to get making I think! What have you used to construct it?

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drmo

It is made out of stainless steel sheet. Model was made out of cardboard. It gets the work done, but next one I'll make a proper trap doors out of metal.

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speaksgeek

You can also buy one from Peugeot Sport. They use rubber baffles too.

Not cheap though.

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Schumi

This is the my shortened and baffled sump. Its for vertical upright mounting. I will use with OEM windage tray. Maybe I will add short lip for front of sump for braking G force.

 

post-22117-0-56702600-1489091322_thumb.jpg

post-22117-0-05828100-1489091331_thumb.jpg

post-22117-0-39054400-1489091337_thumb.jpg

post-22117-0-99502100-1489091341_thumb.jpg

post-22117-0-74497600-1489091306_thumb.jpg

post-22117-0-58804000-1489091315_thumb.jpg

 

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speaksgeek

I have just removed my intake manifold in preparation for Jenvey ITB's. I notice that there are two holes (breathers?) in the side of the head that feed into the stock separator via ports in the intake manifold.

 

I haven't received my new manifold yet, but from the jenvey schematic, it looks like those will be blocked by the new manifold.

 

Do I need to think about these? Will blocking them off make any problem?

It looks to me now, that the only breather I will be able to hook up to is at the top, at the end of the intake cam cover area.

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drmo

you will see if the the on the side of the head (cam ladder) will provide enough engine breathing. Some say that it is enough, but I have different experience.

Could you measure up the Jenvey manifold entry holes (head side) when you get it? An a couple of photos would be really nice.

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speaksgeek

you will see if the the on the side of the head (cam ladder) will provide enough engine breathing. Some say that it is enough, but I have different experience.

Could you measure up the Jenvey manifold entry holes (head side) when you get it? An a couple of photos would be really nice.

 

I've received my Jenvey's. Pretty nice looking kit to my eye.

You can see a schematic here for the manifold. I have the 48mm version, so the body side I measure at 48mm (with crap ~0.3mm accurate calipers), the head side is as shown 23.7x47.6 oval.

For interest sake, I have measured the body mounting holes at 65mm diagonal spacing across the centre line of the body.

I have made my own diagram to use for cutting the airbox backplate.

 

I'm having issues with uploading photos. Maybe my browser. In the meantime, my pdf and some pics are here

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gingieboi
Posted (edited)

I have also had this problem after fitting throttle bodies to my j4s. It's still running vvt. When held at high rpm the catch tank filled and pumped several litres of oil out. At the time I only had the breather from the end of the inlet cam to a tee down to the sump and up to the catch tank, I then opened the blanked hole on the top of the exhaust cam cover and sent that to the catch tank as well which improved it slightly but not much. The next thing I tried was to drill holes in my new inlet manifold to open up the original holes between the ports, I sent these down to a separate tank I made which I mounted under the inlet with the a pipe in the bottom going back to the sump, also I put a pipe from the top of it up to my breather catch tank.

This seemed to fix the problem until I got back to service after a stage and found the catch tank full again. The problem is definitely a lot better as if I had done that before I wouldn't have even made it to the end of the stage before it pumped all the oil out the engine, what I plan to do next is increase the diameter of all the breather pipes and add a drain from the bottom of the catch tank back to the sump but unfortunately I'm not going to know if it's worked until the next time I rally it because it isn't doing it until it's worked very hard which I can't re-create on the road.

Edited by gingieboi
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dcc

A friend of mine has decided to add an extra oil drain to sump, 1.75" pipe direct to sump. Has had union welded to the head

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