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thirdtimelucky

[car_upgrade] 205 Gets An Extra 2 Cylinders

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welshpug

What with the good condition of the 406 looms, that side isn't really an issue, they seem far less exposed to the elements and a higher quality than the looms you are used to seeing from phase 1 405's and 205's.

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kate205gti

lol i dont know many ppl who can "find" an extra £1k <_<:P this is a good conversion on a budget - and blows other more expensive conversions out the water imo :wacko: so can stay with the standard management for now

 

after all 197bhp and 209 lb/ft is none too shabby :)

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Goliath
after all 197bhp and 209 lb/ft is none too shabby <_<

 

It's 'only' 190bhp and 197lb/ft so you might want some mods after all! lol

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Alastairh
lol i dont know many ppl who can "find" an extra £1k <_<:P this is a good conversion on a budget - and blows other more expensive conversions out the water imo :wacko: so can stay with the standard management for now

 

after all 197bhp and 209 lb/ft is none too shabby :)

 

Just don't blow yours up Miss 7 16v's...

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kate205gti

hehe! that was 16v - this is 24v to bend now :wacko::)<_<

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maxi

I really do like this conversion and I am in no way knocking it whatsoever, but.......

 

 

Has anyone really and seriously compared their V6 205 to a DECENT mi or gti6?

 

I really am intrigued to see how they go in the real world. I think the person to honestly answer this question who judgement I trust is Hilgie.

 

Do we know any 1/4 mile times?

 

Maxi

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kate205gti

well ive had mi16, mi16 on throttle bodies, mi16 on cams on throttle bodies, gti6 on throttle bodies - all with RR printouts from the same place (emerald), so could take momo to emerald once hes done and get a direct comparison

 

having had a ride in georges already though im quite confident that its the new gti6 :D:o:P

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Tesstuff
I really do like this conversion and I am in no way knocking it whatsoever, but.......

 

 

Has anyone really and seriously compared their V6 205 to a DECENT mi or gti6?

 

I really am intrigued to see how they go in the real world. I think the person to honestly answer this question who judgement I trust is Hilgie.

 

Do we know any 1/4 mile times?

 

Maxi

 

Rich's is a more than DECENT Mi and despite having more bhp on paper he couldn't show George's v6 a clean pair of heels according to reports.

 

A 'standard' Mi would be left for dust by a v6.

Edited by Tesstuff

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[L'e$kro]
Has anyone really and seriously compared their V6 205 to a DECENT mi or gti6?

 

I really am intrigued to see how they go in the real world. I think the person to honestly answer this question who judgement I trust is Hilgie.

 

Do we know any 1/4 mile times?

 

Maxi

A few videos are available between a 205 2l turbo (TCT) slightly tuned and a stock v6..

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5881684676129689932

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x356hi_20...3la-revanche-lo

 

vs a t16:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5rat3_20...-vs-205-v6_auto

 

and one just for the noise

 

What about the weight of the v6 engine compared to a gti-6?

 

Nicolas

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maxi
well ive had mi16, mi16 on throttle bodies, mi16 on cams on throttle bodies, gti6 on throttle bodies - all with RR printouts from the same place (emerald), so could take momo to emerald once hes done and get a direct comparison

 

having had a ride in georges already though im quite confident that its the new gti6 :D:o:P

 

 

Christ, a 205 thats had more engines than the sla! Im not doubting the power or that god for saken afterbirth, torque of these engines and I do think its a very very good conversion but I just wondered how they compare on the road to an mi or gti6. Ive seen cars make big power and on the road be about as much use as a chocolate tea pot.

 

Maxi

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kate205gti

haha it gets through them :o engine felt fine in the 406 though - 205 will just be lighter and more fun :D :D

 

and george did 3000 miles round europe so cant be THAT bad :D

 

sorry paul we're spamming your thread :P:(

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maxi
Rich's is a more than DECENT Mi and despite having more bhp on paper he couldn't show George's v6 a clean pair of heels according to reports.

 

A 'standard' Mi would be left for dust by a v6.

 

 

Has anyone ever put a good std gti6 or mi up against richs car? I am just wondering if people ar going to be pleasently suprised with how the V6 goes thats all???

 

Maxi

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DrSarty

I'm not entering this to start that 'godforsaken abortion of an argument' BHP versus torque, because as I always said, it is not an argument I ever supported. It is simply not a case of one or the other as they are both totally and utterly linked. But you cannot have horse power without torque: fact.

 

I don't think you should comment on torque like that though Adam in these terms because that is what your engine produces, and naff all else bar heat and noise. It's only when you measure the rate of work possible that BHP is totally relevant as is explained in the pretty decent document I've attached.

 

So just to clarify, I am not and will not argue about one or the other being 'better', because it's ridiculous. It's all about the shape of the torque curve.

 

To that end, I can testify and support anyone saying that in a straight line squirt, the V6 is extremely rapid and I believe it will trounce most 4 pots, especially N/A. Handling I cannot comment on but I assume you are talking over a variety of tests, standing starts and roll-ons which one will outperform the other (?).

 

Side by side at about 50MPH, in a 4th gear roll-on, foot hard down up to over a 100MPH Goliath's V6 and my car were absolutely dead level. We ran out of road space. This is in an instance when the V6 had about 25-20BHP less than mine, but more or less equal peak torque.

 

So I agree that gearing is usually critical to access power, as is the conclusion of the attached document.

 

But in terms of accessible power, my opinion is that the V6 will be the overall quicker car because more torque AND more power is available most of the time. This means a hilarious shove in the back is always there which is the grin factor, hence why I said what I said earlier.

 

Apart from outright power though, I think there's probably something really unknown and cool about having a little car with a thumping V6 in it. I think the hilarity of this thing absolutely taking off in 5th at 100mph is part of the package of noise and grunt. It doesn't have the highest figures, but it has a juicy fat torque curve which delivers huge amounts of fun in most conditions.

 

Other engines you have to work at, and this is something I know you love, and I do too.

 

EDIT>

Just seen your post Ad and yes, they have on ET09 on nice open roads in many comparisons like the V6, such as Wildejon's very quick Mi, standard 1.6, 1.9, S16, 8v turbo (Frank), GTI6 (Capt K) and even Mandic's 405 T16. I was pushing Mandic's car up the road on some pull-out 3rd gear over takes. Even the standard GTI6 was impressive, i.e. it didn't appear to be a huge gap but mine just started pulling away quicker and continued to do so. The V6 however does this even in a higher gear, as you don't have to wait for things to wind up, because the power is already there in the shape of torque.

torque_and_horsepower___definition_and_clarification.pdf

Edited by DrSarty

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Goliath
Has anyone really and seriously compared their V6 205 to a DECENT mi or gti6?

Yes, One the EuroTrip I had a few blasts with wildejon's car which is an S16 (I think!) on bodies and RR'd at 202bhp (not sure on torque figures) and there really wasn't any competition, His S16 does 'bog down' a bit at low revs but een doing high rev roll on's the v6 was still a clear winner.

 

Do we know any 1/4 mile times?

Nope! Not yet, I hope to get the v6 insured again soon and take it to pod aswell as a couple of trackdays to see how it goes :o

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maxi

So, any progress on this conversion? :o:P:D

 

This one really is going to be a trend setter, I can see it now. The topic is already stirring the community. Or is that just me with a wooden spoon?

 

Rich, Its much more fun to knock it down a cog. Thats all I have to say really! Im also well aware of the mathematics involved and the correlation of BHP and torque. An engine is nothing without torque, however, in a light FWD car (such as a 205) with a fragile drivetrain (such as a 205) to deliberately go out and produce torque in excess is such a waste. Give me a reason for wanting a mental amount of torque without using the phrase driveability. 170Ibft torque feels very nice and makes a 205 very driveable. It just seems that I am the only who can see this?

 

Maxi

Edited by maxi

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maxi
Yes, One the EuroTrip I had a few blasts with wildejon's car which is an S16 (I think!) on bodies and RR'd at 202bhp (not sure on torque figures) and there really wasn't any competition, His S16 does 'bog down' a bit at low revs but een doing high rev roll on's the v6 was still a clear winner.

 

 

Nope! Not yet, I hope to get the v6 insured again soon and take it to pod aswell as a couple of trackdays to see how it goes :o

 

 

I know the car very well..... Nick who built my engine put it together. Its an S16 on bodies, emerald ECU and a pair of catcams. Nice little unit back in the day. The V6 must be half sensible then! If the V6 is in this sort of territory, I would expect it to pull around a 13.9SQM. That 200BHP 205 of Johns would be capable of a 14 dead with the right launch, if Emeralds rollers are right.

 

Maxi

Edited by maxi

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Tom Fenton
So, any progress on this conversion? :o:P:D

 

This one really is going to be a trend setter, I can see it now. The topic is already stirring the community. Or is that just me with a wooden spoon?

 

Rich, Its much more fun to knock it down a cog. Thats all I have to say really! Im also well aware of the mathematics involved and the correlation of BHP and torque. An engine is nothing without torque, however, in a light FWD car (such as a 205) with a fragile drivetrain (such as a 205) to deliberately go out and produce torque in excess is such a waste. Give me a reason for wanting a mental amount of torque without using the phrase driveability. 170Ibft torque feels very nice and makes a 205 very driveable. It just seems that I am the only who can see this?

 

Maxi

 

205ftlb torque from a 1600 that will also happily rev is also very nice.

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maxi

I will just resign to beg to differ with......everyone I think :P:o

 

Anyway, sorry for clogging your topic fella. While I have been waffling has there been any progress?

 

Maxi

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EdCherry

My mighty 100ftlb from my 1.4 HDi is amazing. It feels like im moving fast but im really not.

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dcc

half way through the Eurotrip, both George and my self could notice the v6 lost a lot of its power, all of which was a combination of airlocks and water leaks. The heads were deffo. warped, we kept that quite between our selves and a few others, as well as the fact the differential was making more noises than Kate when she sleeps. this is not an excuse at all, as Sarty 240bhp 196ftlb torque monster of an engine was very impressive to keep up, let alone not look like backing off! we admittedly still had a lot revs

 

along side the s16 at the first day or 2 of the trip, there really was no competition from xx mph - 100mph, the v6 really is quite insane. pulls off in 3rd, and wheel spins in 2nd, 1st is a pointless gear, without any revs, she was losing traction every so often in the dry.

 

I noticed the front end was very hard to bring out of corners, at speed, and still be facing the direction you intended (George our little spirited drive down that German mountain should prove this LOL :o) but you can deffo see how this engine/shell combo COULD get immense respect with a decent suspension setup :P

 

good luck Paul, and P.S, DONT copy the cooling setup on the 406!

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thirdtimelucky

Ive had a couple of 205 mi's in standard tune, Georges v6 is in a different league. the main advantage of the v6 is 200bhp for not much money and it's very quick in a straight line, if you can get traction, but with the extra weight in front of the front wheels it's its going to have a negative affect on the handling. Time will tell. Sounds like there will be a few more 205 v6's popping up over the coming months, we need to get some on tracks and see what times they produce, thats the only real comparison, power figures only show part of the story.

 

Keep up the discussion, its nice to here peoples views and it makes for a good read :o

 

Ill update after the weekend when there is a bit more progress.

 

Paul.

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maxi
half way through the Eurotrip, both George and my self could notice the v6 lost a lot of its power, all of which was a combination of airlocks and water leaks. The heads were deffo. warped, we kept that quite between our selves and a few others, as well as the fact the differential was making more noises than Kate when she sleeps. this is not an excuse at all, as Sarty 240bhp 196ftlb torque monster of an engine was very impressive to keep up, let alone not look like backing off! we admittedly still had a lot revs

 

along side the s16 at the first day or 2 of the trip, there really was no competition from xx mph - 100mph, the v6 really is quite insane. pulls off in 3rd, and wheel spins in 2nd, 1st is a pointless gear, without any revs, she was losing traction every so often in the dry.

 

I noticed the front end was very hard to bring out of corners, at speed, and still be facing the direction you intended (George our little spirited drive down that German mountain should prove this LOL :lol:) but you can deffo see how this engine/shell combo COULD get immense respect with a decent suspension setup :(

 

good luck Paul, and P.S, DONT copy the cooling setup on the 406!

 

 

Whats happened to it now then? Shame it was rushed and not tested/developed as a conversion before you went. This is the reason why I think this particular conversion of thirdtimelucky's is going to be the trend seteer. I can see a lot of time and effort is being spent already to get everything absolutely right.

 

Paul, you arent that far away from me, if its ok with you id love to pop over and have a nosey at some time?

 

Maxi

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thirdtimelucky

Ok quick update, didn't get as much done as I wanted to this week, Saturday morning was a bit wasted after birthday drinks on Friday night :) Jims misses has gone to Peru for a month so he'll be available to help me more in the evenings.

 

Got my servo and master cylinder in

19072009060.jpg

 

Its a bit tight.

19072009064.jpg

 

I had to trim the timing belt cover so it didn't hit the servo.

17072009031.jpg

 

I then had a go at the gear selector, I used the cable setup from the donor coupe, It only took me 30 minuets.

 

welded a 3mm plate to the 205 metal gear selector cover, then drilled 4 holes to line up with the coupe gear selector.

19072009048.jpg

 

then put the 205 cover back into the 205 and bolted the coupe selector to it from under the 205.

19072009044.jpg

19072009058.jpg

19072009053.jpg

 

Im need to find some shorter cables, maybe from a partner van or something. But it workes well, the only real downside is that it takes up a lot of space in the tunnel which will make the exhaust hang low.

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thirdtimelucky

Had a go at the subframe today, It needs a lot of cutting to make it fit, mainly around the diff housing and where the inner cv are. I removed the exhaust down pipes as they looked badly designed and would require more cutting of the subframe, it would make a better job if I made some new ones.

19072009040.jpg

19072009042.jpg

19072009043.jpg

19072009046.jpg

19072009045.jpg

 

The subframe does need a lot of cutting and I will strengthen it but I think Ill make a tubular one in the future.

 

Maxi your welcome to come and have a look as is anyone else interested but if you wait a couple of weeks there will be more to look at.

 

Paul.

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chrisj21

Excellent progress Paul.

 

May i ask what master cylinder you have used? the reservoir in particular?

 

I can see this project will be setting trends! loving the engine bay too.

 

Chris

 

Edit: did you receive my pm re the mount?

 

Cheers

Edited by chrisj21

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